Privatizing education in NC

Parent Cafe
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<p>(do not feed the ■■■■■, she thinks, preparing to do just that)</p>

<p>Marsian was not blaming those problems on private school. S/he was merely pointing out that the rose-colored myth that a long time ago, everythin’ was purfect and we don’t need none o that fancified modern edumacation is just that – a myth. The problems with schools when “everything” was privatized were many, profound, and a product of many associated social ills. You contest that when all school were private, our students were #1 and everything was fine. On what do you base that conclusion? Can you site a study, statistics, the historical record of the country?</p>

<p>Additionally, coming in first is not always a laudable goal. I can win a race by starting earlier, shooting my opponents, paying off the timer, wearing better shoes, putting rocks in others’ way, or simply TELL everyone I came in first, regardless. That does not make me the fastest runner, and it’s possible that being a fast runner is completely irrelevant in some situations.</p>

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<p>Who’s the ■■■■■? I made a one sentence comment and you and another get butt hurt and go on a tirade bringing up societies problems from a century ago, and argue a lucid point of view of how being first in the quality of your education could possibly not be good.</p>

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<p>raiders, throwing out one-sentence proclamations without any facts to back them up–and using crass expressions like “butt hurt”–are pretty sure signs of trolling on this site.</p>

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<p>@katwkittens - yes, Wake County offers a great educational system. A few other metropolitan counties do as well. Get to the more rural areas of NC, and not so much. My local high school, in a suburban area, has a 70% graduation rate. Only 30% of those that graduate go on to college. 47% scored proficient in Algebra 1, and that was considered improvement! Average SAT, for the subset who took the test, was 872. And we’re not even the worst school in the district!</p>

<p>As for the programs for medical students, I wouldn’t count on these being around in the future. NC used to offer a similar program for teachers, but cut all funding for Teaching Fellowships. They almost cut the Governor’s School last year. Once they’re done dismantling the K-12 school system, the University system will the next target. Read the governor’s statements on higher education. </p>

<p>As for the voucher program. I posted some about this on the Matt Damon forum. WXII interviewed one school, Raleigh Christian Academy, where they were excited at the opportunity to “minister” to voucher students. I looked the school up. Yes, they perform well on standardized tests. But their school objectives are all religious - they want to produce good servants of Christ. You have to dig deep to get to goals that include education. They discriminate against families that do not attend churches that teach the Bible as literal truth - you can only go to the school if you sign their Statement of Faith, and if you violate it they will kick your kid out. They do not allow students to question religious teachings. And they believe girls wearing pants is the work of Satan (they are allowed to wear culottes for PE). It’s right in their handbook. Dressing in a way that does not clearly identify your gender is the work of Satan. So we’ll get kids who can pass a test, but cannot think for themselves because all that has been drilled out of them. This is why I sent my kids to private school…</p>

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<p>So our tax dollars are paying for this. </p>

<p>I think I am going to open a Wiccan voucher school in my state and see what happens.</p>

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<p>I’m hoping one of the Islamic schools in the state applies to be part of the voucher program.</p>

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<p>I would like to “like” Marsian’s post.</p>

<p>I am in NC. I read the same article as InigoMontoya with the “minister” quote from Raleigh Christian. I guess our lawmakers haven’t read the “separation of church and state” part of our Constitution. I am against vouchers. I want my tax dollars to be used to improve our K-12 education system. If private institutions want more students then they should go about it the “smaller government” way…find like minded private donors and provide scholarships.</p>

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<p>Charlottemom - I’ve been searching per pupil expenditure by county for NC. I am very curious to know what county school system is spending over $15,000 per pupil. I haven’t been able to find anything current that breaks it down by county. Do you have a link?</p>

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<p>I agree with BUandBC82. Giving voucher money to private schools, many of which will not take disabled students, some of which will require parents to agree with their religious principles, and most of which will likely kick students with severe behavior problems back to public schools (who have to take them), is wrong. As a Christian who believes in the separation of church and state, I don’t believe that state money should be funding Christian schools. I, too, wait eagerly for an Islamic or Wiccan school (sally305, you might have a niche market to tap) to apply for the program.</p>

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<p>Sally, my future children will be eagerly awaiting your Wiccan school. I was Wiccan in high school and found it to be an extremely comforting and accepting culture/religion and would love to give my kids the same opportunity :)</p>

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<p>Glad there’s a market for Wiccan education. I am sure there would be some good teachers in my community.</p>

<p>The other thing that is troubling about these voucher schools is that, in addition to turning away disabled kids, they can turn away anyone else they want–which of course public schools cannot. Also, a recent report in my state found that more than 75 percent of the people asking for the vouchers are already sending their kids to private school. So the idea that this is the solution for poor kids in substandard public school districts is largely unsupported by facts. What it really means is that we, as taxpayers, are now subsidizing people who can already afford private, often religiously oriented education for their kids.</p>

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<p>Heck, if the Wiccans can effectively teach kids to read, rite & do 'rithmetic, then why not? It’s not like the public schools are all accomplishing that.</p>

<p>Why not simply make a condition of receiving vouchers, that the schools have to have open admissions? Then the exclusionary schools won’t be eligible for the vouchers. Would that be palatable?</p>

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<p>One of my problems with vouchers is transportation. I live in an area with no public transportation (OK, that’s most of NC). If it weren’t for the school bus, lots of kids would have no way to get back and forth to school. If they’re offered vouchers, what happens if their parents can’t get them to the private school? Does the public school bus system suddenly become responsible for transporting kids to private schools on the other side of town? In a different county? Or are vouchers only usable by those kids with available transportation? This is a problem today with charter schools - many of them offer great opportunities, but I’ve seen a lot of schools where the only kids who can get back and forth to the school are those well-off enough to have a parent who does not work or only works part time.</p>

<p>@GMTplus7, I’m not sure open admissions would address all the concerns. While it would be a start, there are other issues that would take us backwards instead of forwards. There have been numerous legal battles over teaching evolution in the public schools. In most states with voucher programs, the voucher schools tend to teach creationism as an absolute truth. Even if admissions were open, many of these fundamentalist schools spend more time indoctrinating into the religion than they do teaching educational subjects - an open admission requirement would just give them a deeper pool of recruits to attempt to bring into their faith. I’m just not sure that’s the best use of tax dollars for educating our citizens. I’d still rather see the money put into fixing the problems in the public schools rather than diverting the money to (at least in NC) primarily religious schools.</p>

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<p>I vaguely recall the pilgrims came to the New World for religious freedom. If creationism, Islam, Wiccanism or Catholicism is what parents CHOOSE for their children, then who am I to tell them where they want to apply the voucher. LET THE FAMILIES CHOOSE. Families can already choose which college to apply a Pell Grant: Notre Dame or Brigham Young.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, I’m not a religious person, so I am not pushing any particular faith. Simply make the religious school kids pass the same standardized tests the public school kids have to take, to ensure an educational standard is being met, as a condition of continued voucher eligibility. Lol, it’s not like all the public schools are meeting standards… </p>

<p>U are nitpicking every little reason why vouchers wont work (i.e. school buses-- a solution can be made for that issue too), but u offer no specific ideas for making the present public schools work, other than throwing more money down that present unaccountable rathole.</p>

<p>If I were a poor parent and I had a choice for my child btwn the failing public school or the wiccan school where kids are actually learning to read & write, I’d pick the wiccan school.</p>

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<p>Besides the exclusive admissions at some schools and the transportation issues that Inigo has pointed out, there are other issues for poor families. Some private schools do not provide lunch or breakfast, which would exclude students who would normally qualify, and would depend on, a free or reduced lunch and/or breakfast. Some private schools require that parents put in a certain number of volunteer hours, which would exclude families with transportation problems or where the parents work two or three jobs.</p>

<p>In addition, most private schools with which I am familiar will kick out any student whose misbehavior is not easily corrected. They are not required to educate that student no matter what, as the public schools are required to do.</p>

<p>The irony here is that the very families that don’t have as much choice because of finances aren’t going to end up with any more choice than before. The vouchers aren’t enough to cover tuition at any but a few private schools. Some private schools are already discussing raising their tuition to cover the amount of the vouchers.</p>

<p>A number of the legislators touting vouchers are well-known to be anti-public education and proponents of fundamentalist religious schools. Many of these people are the same ones who have complained about the teaching of evolution, and a number of them signed a resolution declaring that the state was within its constitutional rights to establish a state religion. They are doing everything within their power to gut the public schools – vouchers, taking away money for teaching assistants, removing financial incentives for teachers to pursue higher education, etc.</p>

<p>If they were really focused on helping poor children, this is what they would do: (1) Require any school in a voucher program to admit a certain number/percentage of very low socioeconomic students with vouchers and not charge that child’s family any extra money for tuition, fees, etc. (2) Require each voucher school to admit AND RETAIN the most impoverished and challenged students who apply, up to the designated number/percentage, regardless of those students’ special needs, behavior problems, socioeconomic status, religion, etc. (3) Require each voucher school to provide transportation to the students and parents as needed, free or reduced lunch and/or breakfast as needed, and suspend any requirements for volunteer or fund-raising work for parents who are unable to fulfill those. (4) Require that all voucher schools offer at least the standard course of study offered by public schools (i.e. no refusal to teach evolution) and meet the same testing and accountability requirements of the public schools.</p>

<p>The legislature didn’t do this because their primary purpose in passing the voucher law wasn’t to help poor children or children with behavior problems who are struggling in public schools. Their primary purposes were to get money to the private (mostly religious) schools and to pay families to leave the public school system. </p>

<p>A fiscal analysis performed by the legislature’s staff found: “[T]he voucher program will cost taxpayers between $7.1 million and $22.9 million over the next five years. That’s because many students who obtain vouchers normally would have paid for private school out of their own pockets. Others would have already been attending private school, but qualify for a voucher nonetheless.” [School</a> voucher program could face legal challenge | North Carolina | Indy Week](<a href=“http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/school-voucher-program-could-face-legal-challenge/Content?oid=3657745]School”>http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/school-voucher-program-could-face-legal-challenge/Content?oid=3657745)</p>

<p>Here’s an editorial covering why so many in NC are opposed to vouchers. [Why</a> school vouchers are wrong for NC | Other Views | NewsObserver.com](<a href=“http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/04/18/2834479/all-the-ways-school-vouchers-are.html]Why”>http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/04/18/2834479/all-the-ways-school-vouchers-are.html)</p>

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<p>SlackMomMD wrote</p>

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<p>This “pep rally” is not an uncommon event that occurs ONCE a YEAR to start the new academic year on a positive note. There is nothing even remotely like this at any other time. When I worked at Fairfax County Public Schools, one of the top school districts in the country, every August the system held a 2-3 day mini-conference for all teachers and support staff. I usually just went for one day because I was a planner (one of those ‘useless’ administrators) and the majority of sessions were directed toward teachers and counselors. The great thing about this was you got to meet people in other schools, buildings, fields within the school system and exchange ideas as well as put faces to emails and phone calls. BTW, this was a far less expensive solution than sending teachers out to national or even regional conventions.</p>

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<p>Typical. You realize money is fungible right? The money used to pay for this could easily cover 50 teaching assistants for the year. How the hell do you explain that you’d rather have a pep rally(at a professional arena) than give people jobs? In the real world (not government excess), when there are layoffs, none of this crap goes on. “Positive start to the year?” Is that a joke? These are supposed to be adults, not children. The state pays them and talent retention is not and has not ever been an issue. </p>

<p>I’m glad you got to meet people at other schools and that it was ‘great’ but you’ve done nothing to indicate that this conference added any value at taxpayer expense.</p>

<p>People like me scream about costs when the money is absurdly wasted, which it clearly, clearly is. I can identify tons of programs here in NC that are a complete waste of money. IPad programs and pep rallies for adults are particularly egregious considering the performance of a lot of these schools.</p>

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<p>@Marsian,</p>

<p>You are obsessed w creationism. </p>

<p>Did u see the the documentary “Waiting for Superman”. You’d b surprised by what poor parents are willing to sacrifice to get their kids a decent education, including riding w their kids across town on public transportation to get their kids to better school.</p>

<p>I seriously doubt that given a choice btw a failing public school w free lunch and a religious school w reading, riting, rithmetic, and no free lunch, that most poor parents would go for the free lunch.</p>

<p>Why are u afraid to give parents a choice? Are u afraid they are too dumb to know what’s good for them?</p>

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<p>Marsian, you are completely right about all of this. </p>

<p>Rexximus, why shouldn’t teachers do things to get the year started off right? Don’t you want your kids to be taught by people who are excited about being there?</p>

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<p>GMT, that is not a choice poor parents should have to make. Not only that, if the goal is to prepare kids to compete in a global economy, giving them a substandard science education does not seem like a very good way to do it, don’t you think?</p>

<p>And FWIW, it is generally not the Catholic schools that are shoving creationism down students’ throats. It’s the evangelical schools like the one I attended. Their agenda pervades every subject and makes life miserable for smart, inquisitive students.</p>

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<p>Completely and unabashed false dichotomy. This adds nothing to the discussion about the disbursement of limited resources.</p>