<p>My daughter’s good friend decided to go to a small, top tier LAC 2 years ago. He has done very well at the LAC (varsity sports, good grades, knows everyone on campus), but he is bored. He is looking to transfer to Cornell next fall. </p>
<p>I think what this person has experienced is quite common among college students. A small LAC sitting is very comforting for students ages 17-19, but as they mature both intellectually and emotionally, they want a larger, more diverse environment. Cornell is a very big, red machine. You don’t have anyone checking up on you if don’t go to classes or send you warning notes if get bad grades. There is one very good school in Boston, their pitch is the school is a small LAC the first two years for its students and it becomes a research university when the students are juniors and seniors.</p>
<p>My daughter’s expereince has been very positive, but by nature she is a very proactive, organized person. She has been pleasantly suprised on personal attention she has received from her professors, even in a large lecture sitting, but she goes to office hours a few times a week to get help. She has been able to get into classes she wants, even outside of her school. </p>
<p>Socially, it is hard to know everyone in your class like in a small LAC. My daughter had to make an effort to create her own circle of friends, and it was very intimidating the firs month of school. She chose to go the sorority route. I was a bit apprehensive about it initially because of all the bad press. At the end, I think it’s worked for her. </p>
<p>I think if you require a lot of emotional support and hand holding, you may find Cornell challenging. I think that’s where the “fit” comes in.</p>
<p>Predicting “pros and cons” regarding large organizations like colleges and universities is fraught with pitfalls. This is because different individuals enter the schools with vastly different expectations and personal resources; additionally they land in different nodes of the “same” academic society.</p>
<p>My experience was of starting college at a very small engineering school on the east coast which didn’t work out, and transferring to a big state university that was more than twice the size of Cornell, that I appreciated right from the start. So, Monydad, this admittedly was my bias in initially challenging the degree to which you listed Cornell’s size and diversity as a negative. When I landed years ago at the big state university it was like being transferred from a tiny fishbowl into a wonderful lake full of all kinds of interesting aquatic life. Plus, now my daughter is attending Cornell, which is half the size of my state school, and despite some normal initial adjustment challenges she is finding it to be a wonderful environment. So that different folks can perceive the “same” milieu in quite different ways is very true. </p>
<p>Prior to my daughter attending Cornell I also had a set of good friends who were Cornell alumni, and they always seemed incredibly proud and respectful of the school – seemingly always with fond memories. So when I knew that only a tiny fraction of students statistically transfer from Cornell, it led me to wonder if you might have been projecting your unique experience as being a more general condition of the fine university. While I still suspect that there is something to the latter sentence, I have come to see that the truth must lie somewhere in between both of our takes concerning the nature of Cornell’s social and academic diversity, like CayugaRed has so eloquently suggested.</p>
<p>People who choose to attend the university in the first place ought to have already evaluated this aspect when weighing their personal pros and cons, and have decided on balance overall it is the right place for them. One would not expect them ordinarily to subsequently to decide to transfer out if they experience what they expected to experience when they made their committment decision in the first place. That’s why, to be honest, I don’t have that much sympathy for some of the people who’ve come on to CC complaining about their cohort once they get there. But anyway, this is only one factor, of many, entering into such a decision, not necessarily a driving force in itself.</p>
<p>There are other people who do not apply to the university in the first place, or who do but choose to attend elsewhere. One might expect that the relative “con” weighting this group ascribes to some of these characteristics is higher than among those who choose to attend.</p>
<p>That does not necessarily mean either group is “right”, or won’t change their minds, or wish after the fact that they’d evaluated things differently.</p>
<p>Monydad, you stated that, “there are other people who do not apply to the university [Cornell] in the first place, or who do but choose to attend elsewhere. One might expect that the relative ‘con’ weighting this group ascribes to some of these characteristics is higher than among those who choose to attend.” But that may or may not be the case, because some in this group of students may have chosen much larger schools like UCLA, or NYU – or even Harvard and Northwestern University whose enrollments are roughly equal to Cornell’s.</p>
<p>Your position in the previous post also seems to assume that most prospective students would give the diversity and size issue due consideration, which would not always be the case for incoming freshmen.</p>
<p>Also, my guess at the reason for Cornell’s very solid retention rate is that its students either appreciate the quality of the school, its remarkable opportunities (along with its diversity), or they at least come to realize how much they would be giving up were they to transfer.</p>
<p>Or they just choose not to act. I would argue that there are a fair number of students (at any university) who would be happier elsewhere, but do not make the effort to transfer.</p>
<p>“Or they just choose not to act. I would argue that there are a fair number of students (at any university) who would be happier elsewhere, but do not make the effort to transfer.”</p>
<p>Yes, but WHY do they choose not to make the effort? Some do – I in fact did. Of those who consider transferring from a great and diverse school like Cornell, how many come to realize the “grass always appears greener on the other side of the fence” adage? Usually, those who do act on transferring feel very very strongly for one reason or another. My belief is that students at Cornell so rarely transfer because many who might consider the prospect realize that the pros far outweigh the cons there compared to the viable alternatives.</p>
<p>… which is different than saying there are no cons in existence to be weighed in such decision.</p>
<p>In any event, with regard to this particular item, I think most of us here agree the situation gets better, actually. So those most likely to act on their impression of it being a con are people who don’t show up in the first place because of it. </p>
<p>Because by the time you experience it as a con personally and start thinking about acting on that , you may also have some nagging feeling that the adverse situation may actually get better in the future if you stay on. And you may be right.</p>
<p>BTW subsidized NYS tuition is disincentive to transfer for some; great school but just saying…</p>
<p>“… which is different than saying there are no cons in existence to be weighed in such decision.” If you look back you will see that I never claimed that, but rather that the cons were non-existent for most, minimal for some, and major for a very few.</p>
<p>“BTW subsidized NYS tuition is disincentive to transfer for some; great school but just saying…” Yes, but only for three of the undergrad colleges – the so called statutory schools – and even for them the cost still far exceeds the SUNY schools. The other four undergrad colleges now cost over 51,000 dollars per year for tuition and board, unless you can qualify for aid.</p>
<p>Agreed, especially for the first year or two at Cornell. However, I’m convinced that there is enough diversity and support at Cornell that it is very hard not to eventually find one’s fit on campus with due time. This is why so many seniors – who may have had a lot of ups and downs as an underclassmen – are so aghast to find themselves graduating and leaving Ithaca. The challenge is making certain that the freshmen can find their comfort areas as quickly as possible.</p>
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<p>It is and it isn’t. Ostensibly it can feel like a big state university, but between the seven different undergraduate colleges and the way the students subdivide themselves across many different and uniquely appealing residential choices, after four years I think it ends up feeling much more like an institution half of its size, say Northwestern or Georgetown.</p>
<p>It’s this conflicting duality that has really prompted this discussion.</p>
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<p>Indeed, Cornell’s retention and graduation rate is even more impressive after you control for aptitude and income effects. Whereas some schools, like Dartmouth or Stanford, under perform relative to what their demographics would suggest, Cornell over performs. </p>
<p>The Washington Monthly rankings spell this phenomenon out quite well. Given Cornell’s SAT and Pell Grant percentages, one would expect 89 percent of students to graduate within six years. The actual number is 93, so Cornell is +4 in this regard. </p>
<p>Dartmouth and Stanford, on the other hand, are both -3.</p>
<p>Thanks for the superb post Cayuga, as usual.</p>
<p>Just a couple of points for clarification: first, the retention rate that I had quoted a couple of times in this thread was for the percentage of freshman who return for their sophomore year, which is 96 percent (source = US News and World Report 2009 Best Colleges). The figures you quoted are, if I am correct, for the percentage of students who graduate within 6 years. Those Washington Monthly breakdowns were very interesting BTW. </p>
<p>Second, Northwestern University is a bit bigger than half the size of Cornell. They currently have 18,028 enrolled in total, of which 8,284 are undergraduates (source = Wikipedia).</p>
<p>some say that cornell is the easiest Ivy to get into but the hardest to get out of. How true is this? And how true is is in comparison to Johns Hopkins, WUSTL, and Berkeley?</p>
<p>Don’t know too many people who have attended, and taken the same classes, at all these schools, to give any really insightful answer. </p>
<p>I would expect that all of them are challenging. Including the ones that people label as “easy”. They may be “easy” if you are one of the most academically capable and motivated students in america, like all your classmates are. Otherwise, I bet they are actually not so easy.</p>
<p>While obviously it varies from major to major, from people I have known who went to Harvard undergrad, they have said it is easy once you’re in and they do everything they can to keep you from failing. I certainly didn’t find that at Cornell.</p>
<p>I can’t speak for the other Ivies, though. So, probably some degree of truth to it when comparing academic apples to apples.</p>
<p>I’m really glad this thread is still active, because I have a lot of comments to add. I am an old grad with a teenager just starting to look at colleges, but she has decided that a school would have to be pretty special to exceed the experiences she has already had at Cornell as the child of an alum.<br>
Going back to to post #17, “Cornell is the easiest Ivy to get into but the hardest to get out of” - I believe that the that the quote is not referring to the punishing academics - I believe it is still relatively easy to flunk out if you try, but to the extensive network of Cornellians that you met at school, and you can depend on years later. My husband and I both return to our reunions on a regular basis. At one I ran into a friend who had to leave his country of residence due to a military coup d’etat. He had a new job in the US in short order due to his Cornell connections.<br>
For a girl from a small rural/suburban school Cornell didn’t seem too big. It was the first place I ever didn’t feel out of place for thinking, or doing well in school. And based on my daughter’s experiences there is still bias against academic achievement in public schools.</p>
<p>I’ve never heard that interpretation of the “easiest in…hardest out” line. I don’t think that’s what it means, but you’re absolutely right about the connections - especially on the east coast. </p>
<p>I’ve found people tend to be very proud of Cornell and happy with their experience at it. Not in an arrogant way, but just in the sense that it was a very transformative experience. A lot of pretty impressive people, as well.</p>
<p>If you want to give your daughter a non-parental assessment of Cornell, there are a number of threads on this subject you can search.</p>
<p>Pros - phenomenal school, can study just about anything, very tough academics, high name recognition, Ivy, college town atmosphere (just ask Yalies or Columbia grads about that one), amazing faculty, great alumni connections and contact. </p>
<p>Cons - it is friggin’ cold. And I’m a New Englander. It is dark, and cold, and very very hard. I have two master’s degrees, I spent 10 years working for a Big 4 accounting firm, and I never worked as hard as I did at Cornell. Plus the sports teams (except hockey) for the most part suck, but that’s true for all of the Ivies. Only Stanford is a great school with awesome sports teams. </p>
<p>Also it’s a bit frustrating having the “state schools” sometimes because the classes there (depending on the academic area) are generally not as challenging and yet it’s the same degree. That’s where the “easy to get in, hard to stay” rep comes from. The state schools skew the admission rates. </p>
<p>When you compare the private colleges to the other Ivies, Cornell’s acceptance rate is very close. As far as comparing to the other Ivies, I’ve told my kids I can live with Yale and Princeton, you will be bummed if you go to Columbia, Harvard undergrad sucks, and Brown is a joke. And Dartmouth, Dartmouth is just too small. But I’m hoping they both go to Cornell. </p>
<p>For me, graduating from Cornell was one of the five best days of my life, right up there with my wedding day and the births of my kids. I’m a third generation Cornellian, and very proud of it. I just wish I could get back to Ithaca more often!</p>
Has really unique majors that can’t be found at many other universities, like Fiber Science and Apparell Design, Human Development and Industrial Labour Relations.
Has an international reputation for academic excellence.
Perfect size [not too big, but not too small].
Students are generally more down to earth than the other Ivy League schools.
There’s like 30 libraries, so there’s always somewhere new to study!
Buildings and campus overall is GORGES [gorgeous].
Putting all freshmen together on North Campus housing for year one was a really brilliant idea to really foster a transition into college life.
There is a million organizations, so there is something for everyone. If you want to start a club, it’s relatively easy to do so.
Students are really passionate about whatever it is they love doing, which is cool to be surrounded by.
Great financial aid, and thus, a pretty good diversity of students from different SES backgrounds.</p>
<p>II. Cons:
Ithaca is not the most booming town, so it can get boring.
In my opinion, it gets REALLY cold. Wind and snow can make the winters tough.
Social life can be a bit rough unless you’re in the Greek system or have a lot of friends who have house parties in Collegetown.
Academics can take over your life, especially during prelim seasons and finals.</p>