Pros and cons of UMass

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Massachusetts - Amherst
21

<p>We visited UConn yesterday and enjoyed their program for ‘Exploratory’ students (kids without a major yet). We have yet to visit UMass, but i’m interested in how UMass treats undeclared majors. My son is torn between UConn and UMass (our State school), so I’m hoping UMass has a good track for undeclared majors. UNH seemed helpful for kids with no majors as well, but he decided agaist UNH. As “notakid” wondered, we’re not sure whether his going to UMass with a number of HS friends is good or bad. </p>

<p>Two questions: Does anyone know how UMass handles undeclared majors? And how do parents feel about their kids going to their own state school with several of their current high school friends - thumbs up or thumbs down on this?</p>

22

<p>This is an interesting question. UMass has a webpage about counseling for undeclared majors - [url=<a href=“http://www.umass.edu/advising/]here[/url”>http://www.umass.edu/advising/]here[/url</a>]. It isn’t flashy and doesn’t have the neat name that UConn has given its advising but it looks like the same thing. UConn is putting more effort into PR - note the words “professional academic advisor” on the UConn site. UMass also has “professional academic advisors” but they don’t try to use that as a selling point. My reaction is that PR is not substance. (Having been to many schools and heard many spiels, I am quite aware of how schools manipulate minor facts to make themselves look better - key word being “look.”)</p>

<p>These are big schools and it’s good to know people, even if you only see them in passing. Unless there’s a specific worry about your kid, I’d say this is a good thing. Our high school sends 20 - 30 kids a year to UMass. Most probably say hi to each other when they see them and that’s about all.</p>

23

<p>UConn is the better school, but if you live in mass. go to UMass…</p>

24

<p>I find that comment humorous - no offense intended. They’re equivalent but UConn has invested more in raising its profile, particularly by investing in basketball. The humor is that this generation is supposed to be more aware of marketing messages but they fall for them just as much. </p>

<p>Here’s a simple exercise: go to Wikipedia and look up how many colleges are in CT and in MA. CT has 32 - counting all 4 year schools, even specialty schools like the Coast Guard and divinity schools, and there are 12 associates degree schools, for a total of 44. MA has 117 total, with I think 20 associates degree schools, meaning there are 97 four year schools. CT has 3.5M people and MA has 6.4M, which means per capita MA has far more schools for its population. </p>

<p>According to the government’s National Center for Education Statistics, MA is the 15th largest state by population but the 10th or 11th in number of schools, while CT is the 29th largest by population but the 33rd in number of schools. (When you look at only those schools that appear in typical college books, MA ranks higher, but I don’t want to get into that.)</p>

<p>Why point this out? Because in this world where people find all sorts of spurious causal relationships, there is at least a reasonable, even likely relationship between the number of schools in a state and how a school is viewed. UMass competes for mindshare with a huge number of in-state competitors while UConn competes with very few - look at the list. When UConn - which I’m not denigrating - is then viewed by the larger public, it comes to that judging with the advantage of being a much clearer choice in its home state. (If you wonder if this kind of idea is acceptable, it’s a typical question addressed nowadays in both sociology and behavioral econ; you examine how people think and what affects their perceptions, given that people believe they think and act objectively and the reality is they don’t.) </p>

<p>Indeed, one could construct an argument that UMass is “better” - whatever that means - because it needs to compete in a far more crowded market. This is like saying the 3rd place finisher in the AL East is “better” than the 1st place winner in the AL Central but the 3rd place team doesn’t make the playoffs because the rules only allow one wild card from a division.</p>

25

<p>UConn has the better reputation nationally and internationally for its academics… US News ranks UConn significantly higher… UConn competes on the level of Purdue, Indiana, and Virginia Tech… UMass competes on the level of URI and UNH. The admissions selectivity is higher for UConn, as well (review.com)… UConn just has more of the higher caliber students… UMass is a very good school, but its not on UConn’s level… UConn doesn’t even consider it one of its major competitors, as it focuses more and more on competing nationally… If we had this discussion 10 to 15 years ago, I would say UConn and UMass are almost on par with one another, but that simply is not the case anymore.</p>

26

<p>Let’s not have this discussion. It’s not worth it. The differences between the schools are negligible.</p>

27

<p>You’re delusional… ;-)</p>

28

<p>This all seems kind of ridiculous to me. Speaking as someone who was accepted to UCONN and waitlisted to UMASS I don’t really think employers will care which one I got to. If there are two people applying for the same job and one went to Harvard and the other to UMASS it is understandable that the Harvard alumni would have the advantage. But when comparing such similar schools, it is not important at all. Both have their pro’s and con’s and in the end it isn’t important.</p>

29

<p>Thank you, tab98. </p>

<p>I’ve said about a dozen times the following:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Rankings are crap but even if you take them at face value they have little to no meaning in the actual world. Prestige only matters for a handful of schools and no one, including grad schools, cares much whether you go to Utah or Davidson or UMass or UConn or Missouri. You still have to get grades, do well on your MCAT, LSAT, etc. to get into grad school. </p></li>
<li><p>Students should go where they want to go and where they can afford to go. Students should evaluate which place fits them better and which school offers a program that fits them better. From my experience, students spend a ton of time pouring over books and rankings lists without sufficient a) critical thinking about what’s being said and b) reading what the colleges have to say about their actual philosophy of teaching for that program. Schools do differ by approach - and some trumpet that, as in the Great Books approach. As for critical thinking, realize the schools are marketing and some are more aggressive and some, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, use advertising techniques to make something sound more special than it likely is. (I remember hearing all about one school’s “core” curriculum and how it made the place so special and then realized that half of the schools we looked at had something similar. There’s a lot of marketing.)</p></li>
<li><p>Cost. I’ve noted also that students and families bought into a bubble mentality that you could always pay off debt, that extra cost was always worth it or didn’t matter. If you take on $80k in loans, you’re going to need to make a lot more money to pay your loans. (I’m speaking specifically about student loans the student must pay; families have different considerations.) Are you really going to make an extra $15k a year in your field because your degree says X university? </p></li>
</ol>

<p>So go where you want, where you can afford, where they have a program that fits you. And the reason is simple: you make your life. This is a big world. What matters is you, not the name on your degree. You are the hero of your own story.</p>

30

<p>To the OP … if you’re still thinking about UMass. My oldest and I visited UMass a year ago … as MA residents it was one of my oldest’s financial safety schools. </p>

<p>The punchline for us was we both liked UMAss a lot more than we expected to. For a school of it’s size (population) the campus was more compact than we expected. The buildings and architecture while not amazing were pleasant enough (a few too many 70s concrete beasts though) and the grounds were green and nice enough. The people we met were nice, helpful, and enthusiastic about UMass. The five school consortium (sp?) was a great attribute. And as MA resident the price certainly was right. Two things came out as negatives. First, while we liked downtown Amherst which is right next door to campus it is a pretty small town (my oldest was looking for urban so this was not good). Second, we also did not get a great buzz of activity and energy on campus … we did go on a weekend … since 3/4th of the students are from MA and it is not a very big state lots (A LOT) of kids go home on the weekends … for my oldest (who may never come home again) this was a big negative.</p>

<p>Overall, UMass seemed to be a place that a student could get a very good education if they wanted to and also have a very good time after finding their like minded souls also … a very solid state school option.</p>

31

<p>I have to hand it to you all… you are all very enthusiastic about UMass… Like I said before, UMass is a very good school, but UConn has the edge… Here is why… UConn gets a lot more of the higher caliber students, their facilities are way better than anything you will see at UMass, and they have access to more money. More money translates into more research and aid for various programs, a better student/faculty ratio, greater amount of financial resources to aid in attracting higher caliber students, and better infrastructure. Recruiters notice what is going on at the various schools they recruit… don’t fool yourselves. They realize the significant differences between a UConn and a UMass.</p>

32

<p>My S and I went to one of the Accepted Student days at UMass. We had done a tour the year before which was pretty bad - huge crowd, lousy tour guide, lousy weather.</p>

<p>I have to say they did a great job, to the point where he is now seriously considering it. He got into the engineering school, which is very well regarded (the student-faculty ratio is much better, the stats of the students in the engineering school are way above the school average), and the Commonwealth College honors college. </p>

<p>Financially it is a far better deal than anything else he got from other schools (we are in-state). It’s a tough decision.</p>

33

<p>TTown, believe what you want but stop polluting the UMass forum with your crap. You have nothing to offer here. </p>

<p>BTW, for those actually interested in UMass and not in puffing up some other school, according to current figures released by both schools, UMass took in 35% more external research dollars than UConn - $136M to $101M. Schools are required to put out a research report each year and I’m using an [April</a>, 2009](<a href=“http://news.uconn.edu/2009/April/rel09053.html]April”>http://news.uconn.edu/2009/April/rel09053.html) UConn summary report and the full [UMass</a> report](<a href=“http://www.umass.edu/research/report_on_research_08.pdf]UMass”>http://www.umass.edu/research/report_on_research_08.pdf) for the same period. Both schools are Carnegie Research Extensive Universities - a listing noted by UConn as given to 4% of the nation’s schools.</p>

34

<p>I’m not sure if this will come out the way I’m thinking but is UMass really that good of a school or do people just say it’s good because they had no options (financially or academically)? If you took away the actual cost of attending any school, does UMass stand up against the other schools in MA? Professors, academics, housing, students etc. </p>

<p>Is Umass really a good college when it stands by itself and if so, why do people hesitate to attend?</p>

35

<p>UMass is ranked in the top 50 in the world by the “Academic Ranking of World Universities” for both sciences and engineering: [url=<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU-FIELD2008.htm]field[/url”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU-FIELD2008.htm]field[/url</a>] (I’ll point out for our UConn friend that UConn does not show up in the top 100 in either field. :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>It gets disrespected a bit because there are so many other good schools within a few hours’ drive. Remember, 3 of the 5 in HYPSM are in the northeast, and two are in Boston! It’s tough to get mindshare.</p>

<p>I’m hoping my son decides to go there for engineering. He will get a great education, come out debt-free, and I will save a pile of money also.</p>

36

<p>I’m a father of girls. Grew up in Michigan where all my family went to school. I went to an Ivy league school and then on to law school. One daughter is graduating a private college in MA in 3 weeks.</p>

<p>I’ve noted above that UMass mostly suffers from being the public university in a state dominated by private schools. Seriously, the competition starts with Harvard and MIT, arguably the 2 most prestigious schools, then goes through a long, long list. UMass isn’t in Boston and the only major sports school is BC so the school is out of sight. So I would say - and I think most people agree - that UMass is under not over rated. </p>

<p>Note that politics have long affected UMass - as they do all public schools. UMass medical was located in Worcester because of politics. That has turned into a blessing of sorts because western Boston has become a major biotech region but the medical school would help UMass more if it were located with the campus as a regional medical center. Until the Romney administration, UMass was not allowed to designate Amherst as the flagship school. This was stupid politics; the local politicians in Lowell, etc. wanted to say their school was UMass. They missed the point shown by other states - as in Michigan, where UofM - Dearborn has risen in profile because UofM puts its Ann Arbor name on what was a commuter school. Same in Wisconsin and elsewhere; you build the system by having a strong flagship.</p>

<p>I think people hesitate to attend for a variety of reasons. First, it’s a big school and lots of kids would prefer a smaller one. Second, for the reasons I’ve noted above, it’s not as prestigious as other schools in the state. </p>

<p>So, is it a good school? Yes. I always say you should look at your interests and what a school offers - and its pedagogical philosophy - but the kids I know who go there are intelligent and tell me they enjoy their classes. </p>

<p>I’m sure opinions vary about things like food and housing, but I can tell you it’s worse at Michigan. Since I brought it up, here’s a point I may have made earlier: state schools are generally about 3/4 state residents. UofM is - UConn is - and the public schools in that state, where I grew up, are certainly not better than in MA. So the kids at UMass will be at least as good. And no one in Michigan or Texas or Missouri thinks the schools are worse because they cost less. That seems to be a MA thing where people naturally compare these expensive - believe me, I know - schools to the public school. If you grow up in Texas, you want to go to Texas and pay very little. Here, kids aspire to private school.</p>

<p>When people talk about professors, I tell them the best one I ever had ended up tenured at BU, where he ran the English department. Some people can teach. Some can’t. That’s true at Harvard or Yale and at Mississippi State. (One other terrific teacher ended up in Alaska. He ****ed people off but he could teach.)</p>

<p>The other big difference in prestige is graduate schools. Michigan has a top 5 law school - I went there - and a bunch of other excellent graduate schools. (Rankings matter for grad schools because studies show that grad school - not undergrad - affects how much money you make in your starting job and, particularly in academic fields, that advantage lasts for several years.) </p>

<p>If I were to give advice to UMass, it would be to raise the profile of their graduate schools. UofM gets something like $875M in external research funding - which puts it near the top of the table (top 5) - while BU, for example, gets over $336M. (That’s why when someone talks about UConn et al, the numbers are kind of silly because neither UConn nor UMass have developed that level of research funding.) Now research doesn’t necessarily means squat for teaching to undergrads and few schools work to integrate undergrad instruction into research. But if you want the reasons why UMass is undervalued, that’s one.</p>

<p>(To further explain, BC gets less research funding by a lot - only $44M - but no one thinks it’s a bad school because of that. In education, a lot of threads get tangled together and it’s very difficult to tell marketing from substance. So grad schools matter in some cases but not in others - it seems - and research funding matters somehow, maybe in some cases.)</p>

37

<p>UConn is #66 in US News ranking… UMass is not even in top 100… For god sakes UMass is not even as good as UVM! When it comes to funding, UMass wishes it had UConn’s money… Compare yourselves with schools similar to UMass like SUNY Stony Brook or UVM. I admire how much you all stand up for UMass, though… its cute.</p>

38

<p>Go away. You aren’t contributing anything. You’re a ■■■■■.</p>

<p>And again, for those who actually have a brain, the base state appropriation for UConn - Storrs last fiscal year was $223M. The base appropriation for UMass was $215.8M. Both schools then receive other funds but the base state support is the same.</p>

39

<p>TTown, I doubt believe this but I don’t give a rats *ss what the ranking of any school is … what I care about is what will the intellectual experience and social/growth experience of my child be. For my family, as MA, residents we had 3 basic choices

  1. Privates at about 50k/yr
  2. UMass at about 20k/yr
  3. OOS state schools at about 30k-40k/yr</p>

<p>UMass was absolutely the cheapest option among my oldest choices (who we did not explicitly have pursue merit options) … and we do think for our oldest that UMass could have provided a solid undergraduate experience. We also decided that other schools would provide an even better experience and were willing to pay the difference for a private school. And for us UMass, at it’s price, probably would have been viewed as an acceptable choice and better value proposition over UConn, at it’s price. Clearly YMMV.</p>

40

<p>@Lergnom and TTown -</p>

<p>I believe that the reputation of the graduate program at a university strongly affects its undergraduate value.</p>

<p>Today, every Top-10 graduate school wants undergrads who have done research. If your school does not have good facilities, you will probably have to do an REU (or more) to get the research experience you know (think about the difference between UC and CSU or UMass and Mass State College). </p>

<p>I know that for computer science, top graduate schools such as UC Berkeley, MIT, CMU, UIUC, Cornell, Princeton, UT, UW, UCLA, UMich, and UMass look for the research accomplishment of an undergrad, particularly for Ph.D. and less so for Masters programs.</p>

<p>UMass has an extremely good graduate CS program, which is why it is one of my top choices. While I probably won’t get great research opportunities like MIT students get by going to UMass, if I show potential for research, I am sure that this will benefit my UMass education and will prepare me for a top graduate school like UCB. Out of the $140,184,000 of research expenditures at UMass Amherst (if you count UM-Worcester, it comes out to $2.5*10^7, close to UM’s 400Million (not 800M)), a school WITHOUT A MEDICAL SCHOOL (unlike Umich, Ucla, JHU, BU, Uwash etc, etc), this is a lot, and 12% of it goes to the CS department.</p>

<p>The research expenditures is not really a reason that UMass lacks behind, although it needs to have more top-10 departments, following the lead of schools like UCB, Umich, Purdue, UIUC, etc, etc.</p>

<p>For students who can get into Harvard, yes, they can both get great financial aid and have the prestige and top graduate programs and professional placement, but I think otherwise in MA, you get either prestige or low cost, although I believe that UMass, like many other great public schools are finally beginning to get the attention they deserve as great institutions.</p>