Pros/Cons of large vs small univ for music ed (or vocal performance)

College Majors Music Major
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<p>D is a vocalist, a senior this fall in the midwest, looking at colleges where she can study music education and continue developing her vocal talent. She would like to stay close to home (3 hours drive) and has a variety of colleges to choose from. Without getting into any names, she is looking at large in-state univ. (35K students) with top 20 music school, medium sized in-state univ. (10-15K students) with good music school/dept and small private college (under 10K students) with good music school/dept. She wants to see how her voice develops to see if she can make a living in vocal performance (competition for female vocalist is intense). </p>

<p>My wife and I have been reading in CC for a long time and believe we have a basic understanding the pro/cons of each but we are not music people and may be overlooking something. For our benefit, and D, what are the pros and cons of these size colleges for a vocalist/musician?</p>

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<p>My son was in an instrumental performance/music ed double major program, so I'm not that well versed with the needs of vacalists. Many here are, and I'm sure they'll weigh in.</p>

<p>I'll address some of the music ed points, and some pitfalls of some programs.
Without knowing the specific schools you're talking about, I can't comment on potential issues with those programs.</p>

<p>Part of the preferences are personal, the student's feel of whether they wish a large or small student body, campus size, etc. </p>

<p>On the plus side of size can be multiple classes of the same course number, which can be a big plus for music ed/performance dual major students. Music ed curriculum is very structured and sequenced, part A semester 1, part B semester 2. If you miss a part, you can't take the next sequential course, and have to wait. This can really screw up a schedule, and may entail an extra semester, maybe a year if you get grossly out of sync. I've seen it happen. There may also be greater music ed course offerings in summer sessions, which can help take some pressure off the heavy credit ed/performance credit load (most semester loads for this combo are in the 17.5-19 credit hour/semester range).</p>

<p>I'd also look into the student teaching semester... what geographic radius of student teaching assignments is the norm, will she need a car, or is public transportation adequate, can she still live in college housing during the teaching semester.</p>

<p>Down side could be larger class size for the major classes.</p>

<p>I'd be concerned about the ratio of grads/undergrads within all three sizes. In some performance programs, all the top opportunities may go to grad students, and could be at the expense of the undergrad experience. I'd check with each program, and see what the ratio is, and if the undergrads are given performance opportunities based on talent, not necessarily just class status.</p>

<p>How many music ed classes (and at what level) are taught by grad assistants or TA's? Important insofar as it depends on the type of course, and whether the ga/ta has no real practical classroom teaching experience, and is only a year out of undergrad themselves.</p>

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<p>There is also the danger that the college/university/department will de facto expect your daughter to choose one path over the other. One way is with course scheduling, as violadad described. Also, we did an initial college tour this April, and the Music Ed departments we spoke to most emphatically do NOT want students for whom Music Ed is a "Plan B." Our daughter, for example, simply was not convincing in interviews about why she was interested in MusicEd; but was quite passionate about vocal performance -- so we were advised to pursue that, and let the chips fall where they may. A professor at Florida State University pointed out that it may actually be more time/cost efficient to pursue a BM in vocal performance, then go back for a Master's in Music Ed ... rather than go for two bachelors' simultaneously. She made a convincing case, definitely, for the "food for thought" category. </p>

<p>If your go the BMusicEd route, what you may want to be looking at is what extra-curricular singing opportunities are offered, and do they exclude non vocal performance majors. And who is leading them. </p>

<p>You guys need to sit and chat with your daughter. How interested is she, really, at this stage in Music Ed? How convincing do you think she will be in college admissions interviews? I used to be in the "Plan B" camp, but the more I saw how colleges think about the process, the more I am in the "pursue your dreams as an undergrad" camp.</p>

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<p>Please, please, please do NOT use music ed as a backup. We have had bad experience with bitter teachers who wanted to be performers but were in ed as their backup. Only do Ed if your student loves to teach children. Too often parents push this when they are nervous about a performing career. </p>

<p>That said, DD's HS voice teacher encouraged those who really loved children to pursue the BM and take the education classes at a CC for certifications or get the masters. He felt that too often music ed students were not given the same performance attention and you really then DO limit your choices to only teaching when you graduate. </p>

<p>We found that size of the school had nothing to do with the quality of the vocal instruction. Find the teachers first, the ones that will provide the right encouragement and instruction for your student and are willing to work with undergraduates. A lot of VP teachers prefer grad students. Then look at the environment that will allow the appropriate levels of performance for their development, someplace between pushing them to the side and overusing them for their vocal development health. We found those in smallish conservatory and in universities. We settled on a small university so she could have a broader education and relationships outside of the music. In VP it seems the masters is pretty much a given these days anyhow.</p>

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<p>If there truly is an interest in music ed though, she can also do her undergrad in that and then if performance is still an interest and an option, go on to a masters program for more emphasis in performance. There are plenty of kids getting masters in top notch conservatories and university programs who have music ed degrees. You just have to make sure you are not at a school where music ed majors are treated as second class citizens. There are many performers who took that route. Renee Fleming was a music ed major, as was Kathleen Battle. The search for a teacher can be overwhelming for voice since there truly are excellent teachers in so many different environments. A review of recent winners of the Metropolitan Opera competition reinforces that well trained voices come from a variety of sources. One '07 winner did her undergrad at Grand Canyon University -that was a new one for me.</p>

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<p>Shooting off from cartera, this strategy might depend on exactly what kind of vocal performance your daughter is interested in pursuing. If it's classical/opera, then it might be good to do MusicEd as the bachelor's, then pursue a masters in performance as her voice matures to its prime.</p>

<p>If she is thinking pop/jazz/commercial, that may point toward getting her bachelor's in performance, then coming back later for a master's in MusicEd.</p>

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<p>Voice departments in LAC's, small and large publics, and conservatories are fickle things. I cant tell you in vague terms what the general pros and cons are. It all comes down to your d's voice and her teacher. My D started out as a light lyric soprano with a pile of merit aid at a small reputable LAC and ended up graduating as a big voiced mezzo from a very large public u with a highly regarded voice faculty. The harder she worked the "luckier" she got and who knew at the beginning that the little tweety-bird sound would explode into something huge. One thing we did find out in the beginning is that several schools had better merit aid for VP as opposed to music ed.</p>

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<p>Check your state. In this state you would not be able to take your education classes (to teach music) at a community college. Those are upper level courses not offered at a CC.</p>

<p>Re: options...look also at the number of performance groups. Your singer wants to be able to be in a decent ensemble (ensembles are usually are requirement for both Ed and perf majors...so you want to be sure there are good ensembles...and enough for all those women). In addition, your student will need to take lessons. If they want to study with the applied faculty (the professors) some schools do this only for their performance majors and Ed majors (only...not those doubling in perform) study with grad assistants. If the teacher is important, this might not work for your daughter.</p>

<p>Also, you talk about the size of the university, but you don't mention the size of the music departments. To me, that is more important. DS went to a university where there were over 20,000 students...LARGE. But the music department was a conservatory within the university and had a much smaller...and closely knit...group of students. The reality is that your music major is going to spend far more time with and in the music department than anywhere else on campus anyway. The size of the department matters too.</p>

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<p>Wow...thanks everyone...very insightful comments....
To fill in some of the missing info people mentioned...
DD is currently being classically trained with some show tunes added. She consistently places in top three in state vocal competitions and receives top ratings in non-competitive events. She enjoys singing opera and pop/show tunes. She currently sings in two ensembles, her high school concert choir/show choir (they do both in alternating semesters) and an audition only high school community choir (80 kids from 30 different high schools) at the one of the local colleges that sings mostly classical. She enjoys kids and teaching.
Thumper1...good point about size of music school...in our case the size of music school matches university size, large school has 1500+ in music school, medium schools have 250-500 and small privates have 100-200.</p>

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<p>Understand that most music-education programs for vocalists are designed to produce high school level choral conductors not voice teachers. If your daughter's passion is solo singing rather than choral singing, then a music-education degree is probably not a good choice for her.</p>

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<p>The students in many music ed programs have the same performance opportunities and the same voice teachers as the vocal performance majors. They also sing in and audition for the same ensembles. The presence of education courses doesn't impact opportunities for solo work.</p>

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<p>True Dat -- In fact seemed to me that the MusicEd majors at, say, Indiana U had more opportunities to participate in the more "fun" type of ensembles than their voice performance majors did (VP goes to opera, it seemed). But I didn't look into that situation too deeply, so I could be mistaken.</p>

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<p>I didn't mean to suggest that mus-ed students don't receive performance opportunities in college (as you suggested many do), rather vocal mus-ed degree programs are designed to train students to be high school choral directors—nothing wrong with that—so if your daughter wants to teach solo style singing a mus-ed degree will not further or deepen her chances.</p>

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<p>I know many public school music teachers who also teach privately- instrumental, piano and vocal. As music ed majors (or double degree ed/performance, plus a Masters,which is required in our state), they are certainly prepared to do this for the students they target-elementary, jr. high and high school. And, they have learned teaching skills/styles along the way. Certainly don't need a DMA for this except, perhaps, for the most advanced high school students who are considering going on to a competitive situation at the next level. All the programs my daughter and I looked at emphasized the quality of lessons/performance opps. for Music Ed. students as well as performance majors.</p>

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<p>I would like to second the idea of checking out how vocal kids are placed in studios. Our experience in a large university was that non vocal performance majors (including vocal "concentrations") only get a faculty teacher if there are any spots left -- they typically take lessons with grad students. Pretty sure that is how the music ed kids were placed as well. To many kids this would not be a problem, but if you are seriously considering a vocal career an inexperienced teacher could be quite a setback.</p>

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<p>Firstly let me thank everyone for your knowledgeable comments; I'm hoping you can also help to give me some direction with my daughter's choices. She is an upcoming senior in a Performing Arts HS. She's also very good in Science and Math and wants to be doctor, however she would prefer to be an undecided major her first year in college, due to being unsure about becoming a Chemistry major and how that would affect her pre-med. Most pre-med students major in Biology. The catch is that she's also an excellent jazz vocalist and wants to continue pursuing jazz in college since its her passion. Her interests would be to study voice and other related music courses. She doesn't want to stay home and would prefer a college in the east coast. We are truly confused in the selection process since she really prefers a medium size school in an urban setting, more on the smaller side, 2000-4500 perhaps.. Can anyone give us some advice. We are considering Ithaca and Lawrence, although they are not in an urban area; Bucknell seems good for Science but not for Jazz. We have heard Freedonia (SUNY) does have Jazz but we are not sure she would like it there.</p>

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<p>Brie, welcome.</p>

<p>If you weren't aware of it, there's a "New Thread" button on the left upper third of the main music forum page. Just click on it to start a new thread. An off topic or tangential question might well get lost in an existing thread, and draw few responses.</p>

<p>A few places to look are <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/72531-schools-have-strong-music-science-programs.html?highlight=science%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/72531-schools-have-strong-music-science-programs.html?highlight=science&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/6280-suggestions-colleges-music-majors.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/6280-suggestions-colleges-music-majors.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/386212-non-major-music-opps-colleges.html?highlight=Non+major%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/386212-non-major-music-opps-colleges.html?highlight=Non+major&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I'm not that knowledgeable about jazz programs other than a few top ones geared to performance majors. There are many schools with good music programs that allow/encourage non music major participation.</p>

<p>The trick is finding the balance. Many schools charge extra for non major private lessons, or cut lesson times. In some cases, instruction is by grad assistant or TA, rather than the listed faculty. In some cases, participation in top ensembles is limited to music majors. </p>

<p>There's no blanket guidelines, it's pretty much school specific. The info can all be found on the departmental/music school webpages or undergrad handbook, but sometimes you have to dig deeply to find it.</p>

<p>You might want to look into St Olaf, U/Rochester, Vanderbilt, Oberlin, Johns Hopkins to name a few. Not all are LACs, or meeting your size criteria but solid science/math, and abundant music opportunities for non majors.</p>

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<p>Brie,
It can be difficult to get into music classes if you have not auditioned for and been accepted into a music major, tho often non-majors can try out for ensembles. Some of the schools you cited have do not have vocal jazz-- Vanderbilt, Oberlin, St Olaf, Johns Hopkins. Lawrence does, but they start out doing classical lessons for the first two years, I believe. I would look into UMiami in FL. There are very few good vocal jazz programs at the undergraduate level - most of the programs focus on instrumentalists. The serious schools have a rigorous class schedule with little room for electives. And you almost certainly will not get faculty for lessons as a non-major.</p>

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<p>Brie --
Maybe Temple, In Philadelphia?
Otherwise, I think Ithaca would have to be a top choice. Although they do not have a vocal jazz program per se, they do offer ensembles that would let her sing in a jazz style. New York Voices are all Ithaca grads.
Maybe UMass-Amherst?</p>

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<p>Brie-Ithaca might appeal to her as there is a double major called something like "music and an outside field". It is a very good academic institution and I imagine probably pretty strong in the sciences. While not exactly an "urban" area, Ithaca is a great town, very pretty and with both IC and Cornell, there is TONS going on. Fredonia is great for music, and overall considered to be a very "artsy" campus. I might be wary of science there, especially if she has serious dreams of med school. I would also second the comments about making sure kids of undecided or unrelated (to music) majors are allowed in classes/ensembles normally populated by music majors.</p>