Public universities chase excellence, at a price

Parents Social Lounge
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Isn't it sad that a college attracts more people when the price increases? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

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<p>Actually, the demand for a college tends to increase as the average per student expenditures increase relative to the average per student cost. The colleges and university with the highest demand are those where the per student expenditures are two or three times higher than the average per student cost.</p>

<p>This is somewhat independent of price point. For example, a half-price sale on a Honda Civic and a half price sale on a Mercedes sedan would both generate considerable demand. You could have strong demand for a low expenditure school with a very low cost (Honors program at a state U) or a high expenditure school at sticker price. Swarthmore, for example, spends $70,000 per student which represents good value even at the sticker price of $40,000 - the same value as a school spending $30,000 per student and charging no tuition, room, and board.</p>

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<p>Link to the article mentioned in the OP: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/20/education/20colleges.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/20/education/20colleges.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>I like this quotation from the U of FL president about the huge bounties formerly paid for National Merit finalists: </p>

<p>"It gave us a kind of bragging rights," Dr. Machen said, "but it didn’t help in the world of our peers, because they knew we were buying them." </p>

<p>From now on, out of state NMF applicants will receive lower "merit aid" offers.</p>

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Either way, 200 faculty members are not going to make a huge improvement compared with the undergrad enrollment of 35000.

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<p>Maybe the move is more for the press than the education, then.</p>

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<p>The average faculty member should be bringing in $300K a year in research $$$. If you can get the numbers, it's a money machine. The school can take about 40% off the grants for overhead--hire more faculty--rinse and repeat.</p>

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<p>Maybe SUNY could take some lessons from UF... :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>This whole thread just illustrates the utter stupidity of "rankings". Instead of talking about the quality of the teaching faculty in promoting learning and enthusiasm in the classroom, the USNews "criteria" is about fudgable numbers.</p>

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<p>Just try to measure enthusiasm. They try to get at that by the donations criteria.</p>

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<p>The most interesting thing about this article to me was how UF planned to significantly scale back their National Merit program for out of staters. I visited UF a few years ago solely because they offered that NM scholarship and apparently they got a lot of top out-of-state students that way. Doing away with it certainly frees up $$, but if you're a university trying to rise in the rankings I'm not sure cutting off a good source of top students is the best idea. </p>

<p>I also thought it was interesting how many public universities these days are trying to mirror their states' demographics. Interesting to see how that goal can contrast with the drive for high rankings as well.</p>

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Doing away with it certainly frees up $$, but if you're a university trying to rise in the rankings I'm not sure cutting off a good source of top students is the best idea.

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<p>It's important to remember that tuition discounting is a zero sum game. Every dollar of discounts that you give to wealthy students (that's really what SAT scores measure) is a dollar that is not given to a low income student who is shut out of college without financial aid. As state universities shift the majority of their aid dollars to merit aid, they are effectively giving their lowest prices to wealthy customers and closing higher education in the state to lower income families. As a matter of public policy, states should think long and hard about eliminating need-based aid.</p>

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<p>xiggi, I don't do the IPEDS work here, so I don't know about their requirements. However, I believe barrons described it well--specific breakdowns for different type of faculty, etc. . I presume US News and World Report used the The Common Data Set formula.</p>

<p>The student-faculty ratio, as reported, isn't a really good measure of anything--it's weighted at 5% of a larger measure that figures into the ranking with a weight of 20%. This is not an indicator on which a ranking could be made or broken.</p>

<p>I don't work for Chicago and can't speak to their issues. I suppose numbers could be fudged, but it's a dangerous game with very little payoff for the risk IMO. Sometimes definitions aren't clear, that's true--I believe some colleges include athletics ticket "premium" programs when they report alumni giving rates, for example. But I just don't see what large public colleges like UF have to gain by behaving in a sneaky way on faculty ratio.</p>

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<p>The problem with UF is that, its not possible to have the best football team in the country, the best basketball team, basically a flawed admissions process, and 50,000! students, and aspire to be one of the top schools in the country.</p>

<p>I have a bunch of friends that go there, and from what I've heard, the tuition increase will start for the class of 2011, and will not affect students currently enrolled in the university.</p>

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<p>UF is already ranked the 13th public university and the 47th overall. Moving to 10th public is by no means a streach.</p>

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The problem with UF is that, its not possible to have the best football team in the country, the best basketball team, basically a flawed admissions process, and 50,000! students, and aspire to be one of the top schools in the country.

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<p>I don't think the semi-pro football or basketball programs undermine academics at a school the size of Florida. It's not like anyone thinks these are real students in the first place. If you changed the name of the Tamba Bay Buccaneers to the "Gators", not much would change.</p>

<p>It's the scale that prevents a state university from offering the best possible education. On the other hand, that scale is also a universities greatest strength: a huge school is, literally, all things to all people -- offering programs in every imaginable field, from academic, to professional, to vocational.</p>

<p>I think the Pres of Florida would have had a bit more credibility if he had set his target at the best public universities, rather than throwing Harvard out there for comparision. Florida can never be like Harvard. Harvard can never be like the U of Florida. For example, it is unlikely that Harvard will offer a nursing program anytime soon. It's absurd to think that any amount of merit aid could give Florida a student body like Harvard's (Harvard couldn't have Harvard's student body with 5 times the freshmen). On the other hand, the diversity of a large public U (in terms of backgrounds and amibitions) is something that Harvard can't match.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad, is Swat a better school this year than last year? Than the year before?</p>

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<p>Wisconsin has Top 5 teams in both football and basketball this year, and national championship men's and women's hockey teams. Those are the income sports. I don't think it has damaged the academic rep at all and they are getting far more and better applicants than they did when football and basketball both struggled to have a few wins. Despite interesteddad's conclusion that athletes are not students, the graduation rate for athletes is right in line with the overall rate--around 80%.</p>

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<p>dstark:</p>

<p>Heck no. These schools don't even change over decades and decades, let alone year to year. </p>

<p>There is one big exception to that. The increased diversity has made many of the top schools better than they were 50 years ago -- a positive change that is being threatened as many schools shift their financial aid dollars from need students to discounts for wealthy students.</p>

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Despite interesteddad's conclusion that athletes are not students

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<p>That's not what I said. I said that the football and basketball players on national championship caliber teams are not real students.</p>

<p>And, please....some of those graduation rates are as manipulated as the eligibility requirements. If you have "special" academic tracks for your semi-pro athletes, of course some of them graduate. How hard is it to graduate if you don't have to go to class and have "tutors" to write your papers? I would be willing to bet that Florida has basketball players who are borderline literate. We see the Wonderlic test scores for their football players from the NFL combine. It ain't pretty. I don't have any problem with that. They are not hired....er, I mean enrolled... by Florida for their reading and writing skills.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad, if Swat isn't getting better every year, then why should the costs rise at double the inflation rate every year?</p>

<p>If Swat isn't getting better every year, it was a better buy 20 years ago than it is today.</p>

<p>You can say this about almost every other school too.</p>

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<p>Idad-you prejudiced person--here are some bios of UW football starters this year</p>

<p>High School: All-state defensive back by Associated Press, WFCA and Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel … two-time All-East Central Conference pick … conference defender of the year in 2001 … chosen to play in Wisconsin Shrine Game … made 151 tackles, forced four fumbles and intercepted seven passes as a senior … two-time all-conference in baseball and basketball … his American Legion baseball team won state and regional titles in 2001 … National Honor Society member … earned a WIAA Scholar-Athlete Award … ranked fifth academically in class of 144 … coached by his father, Steve</p>

<p>High School: PrepStar all-region selection … two-time all-state selection by Wisconsin Football Coaches Association … twice named first-team all-conference and all-area … career statistics included 121 receptions, 2,234 yards and 26 touchdowns, along with 18 interceptions … had 72 catches, 1,443 yards, 17 TDs and 10 interceptions as a junior … also lettered in track, basketball and baseball … captained football and basketball teams … earned team MVP honors in football and track … two-time all-conference selection in hoops … two-time conference long jump champion, who also won track titles in 100-meter dash, 300 intermediate hurdles and 200-meter dash as a junior … coached at Fennimore High by Tom Uecker … National Honor Society member … named Who’s Who Among High School Students</p>

<p>High School: Named to PrepStar’s “Dream Team” … Prep Football Report All-Midwest choice … top 100 prospect in the Midlands by SuperPrep … three-time all-conference in football and all-metro as a senior … captained football team three times and baseball once … team MVP in both football and baseball … passed for 6,036 yards and 42 TDs in career (340-of-612) … completed 60 percent of his throws for more than 1,500 yards and 12 TDs as a senior … led team to state playoffs for the first time in school history … starter at quarterback since midway in freshman season … his star receiver for two years was former Pittsburgh All-American Larry Fitzgerald ... one evaluator compared him to former Wisconsin star Ron Vander Kelen … lettered in football, basketball and baseball … biggest sports thrill was pitching a shutout in first game of state baseball tourney … selected in the 45th round of the 2002 Major League Baseball draft by the Minnesota Twins ... honor roll student … played for Coach Mike Pendino</p>

<p>High School: Rated by Rivals.com as the nation’s No. 1 kicker … Riddell first-team All-American, USA Today second-team All-American and a two-time all-state, all-area and all-conference selection … also an all-conference quarterback … South Dakota’s 2003 Gatorade Player of the Year … helped lead his team to 12-1 record and runner-up finish in 2003 Class 11AA state finals as a quarterback, strong safety, kicker and punter … national kickoff champion at Chris Sailer’s Kicking Camp his junior year … as a senior, 93 percent of his kickoffs went for touchbacks and he made 6-14 FGAs (long of 52 yards) and 35-36 PATs … also passed for 1,359 yards and 12 TDs, while making 55 tackles on defense … team captain and MVP … won four letters each in football, hockey and track … coach was Mike Flakus … all-state academic choice</p>

<p>High School: Ranked among top 25 players in Midwest and No. 2 player in Wisconsin by Rivals.com … listed among top 15 players in Midwest by SuperPrep … senior year honors included: PrepStar and SuperPrep All-American, Associated Press state player of the year, first-team all-state acclaim from Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and Wisconsin Football Coaches Association and first-team all-area and all-conference kudos … honorable mention all-state and first-team all-area as a junior … a Preps Plus student-athlete and member of Principal’s Advisory Committee … completed 99-171 passes for 1,650 yards and 16 TDs, as well as rushing for 455 yards on just 45 carries his senior year … team was state Division I runner-up in 2002 … lettered in football, basketball, track and baseball … coached by Tom Taraska</p>

<p>High School: Listed among top 40 safeties in the nation and players in Georgia by Rivals.com … Class 5A honorable mention all-state choice by Atlanta Journal-Constitution in 2002 … two-year team captain and MVP as a senior … 261 career tackles, along with 13 interceptions, four forced fumbles, three fumble recoveries and four touchdowns … five interceptions and three TDs his senior year … lettered in track, football and wrestling … two-time honor roll student … coached by Ron Gartrell</p>

<p>High School: Honorable mention all-state running back who rushed for 1,462 yards and scored 20 touchdowns as a senior … first-team all-conference selection and was a two-time team MVP … career totals include 2,193 rushing yards and 32 TDs … lettered nine times (three each in football, hockey and track) … state qualifier in shot put as a senior ... honor roll student throughout high school … coach was Mark Furdek</p>

<p>High School: All-America recognition from PrepStar and All-Midwest acclaim from SuperPrep and Prep Football Report … first-team all-state selection and Defensive Player of the Year as a senior in the Wisconsin Valley Conference … team captain and MVP as a senior … made 374 tackles, including 17 for loss, during his career … also rushed for 1,273 career yards and 24 touchdowns … as a senior, he made 119 tackles (eight for loss) and rushed for 853 yards and 17 TDs … member of National Honor Society … maintained a 3.4 GPA … played for Coach Jack Synold</p>

<p>High School: Listed among top 85 players in Midwest by SuperPrep … ranked among top 45 outside linebackers nationally by Rivals.com … rated No. 2 linebacker in Ohio by Bill Kurelic and No. 6 athlete in the Midwest by Student Sports his senior year … 2002 state finalist for Wendy’s High School Heisman … National Honor Society member … football team captain as junior and senior … career prep totals included 1,300 all-purpose yards, 150 tackles, four interceptions and five forced fumbles … rushed for 500 yards, made 60 tackles, forced three fumbles and registered one interception as a senior … 350 yards rushing and 40 tackles as a junior … lettered in football, baseball and track … coached by Jim Hodakeovic at Bedford High … same school that produced former Badger stars Chris Chambers (now with Miami Dolphins) and Lee Evans (Buffalo Bills)</p>

<p>High School: First-team all-state selection of the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association and second-team pick by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and Associated Press as a senior … played for South squad in the Wisconsin Shrine Bowl all-star game … first-team all-conference pick as a defensive back as a junior and senior … earned first-team all-conference honors as a running back his senior year and second-team as a sophomore and junior … rushed for over 2,000 yards with 27 total touchdowns as a senior … also competed in track and basketball … first-team all-state and all-conference in track his sophomore through senior seasons … played football for Coach Rick Synold … honor roll student … same high school as current Badgers Joe Thomas and Steve Johnson</p>

<p>High School: Ranked among top 40 offensive tackles in the nation, top 85 players in the Midwest and top four players in Wisconsin by Rivals.com … listed among top 25 interior linemen nationally by Tom Lemming … PrepStar all-region selection … named state’s offensive player of the year by Wisconsin Football Coaches Association … first-team all-state selection by Associated Press and Milwaukee Journal Sentinel in 2002 … two-time Marawood Conference lineman of the year … team captain and MVP his senior year … 99 total tackles, including four QB sacks and five TFLs, along with three forced fumbles and two fumble recoveries in 2002 … four-year honor roll student and member of National Honor Society … lettered in football, track and basketball … coached by Cal Tackes at Stratford High</p>

<p>Projected to be among the top three overall selections in the 2007 National Football League Draft by ESPN’s Mel Kiper Jr. and by Scouts, Inc. … named to 2006 Playboy All-America team … 2006 preseason first-team All-American and the nation’s No. 2 offensive tackle according to The Sporting News ... second-team preseason All-American according to Lindy’s and Street & Smith’s ... selected to 2006 preseason watch lists for the Outland Trophy and Lombari Award … was assigned the only one-on-one block on UW’s offensive line 90 percent of the time the past two seasons
Career: Has appeared in 35 games, including 26 starts (one was as a DE vs. Auburn in 2003 Music City Bowl) … two-time ESPN The Magazine Academic All-District 5 and Academic All-Big Ten selection
2005: First-team All-American according to Pro Football Weekly ... second-team All-American by Walter Camp, SI.com and Rivals.com ... consensus first-team All-Big Ten ... Lombardi Award semifinalist ... ESPN The Magazine Academic All-District 5 honoree ... Academic All-Big Ten choice ... started all 13 games at left tackle … named UW’s co-offensive player of the week vs. Bowling Green and Penn State ... earned third varsity letter ... injured right knee while filling in on depleted defensive line in Capital One Bowl game vs. Auburn
2004: Earned second varsity letter ... started all 12 regular season games at left tackle … consensus honorable mention All-Big Ten pick … named Academic All-Big Ten and first-team academic all-district ... set UW indoor record in shot put with throw of 62-0 ¼ feet, set in 2005 ... 2005 NCAA indoor and outdoor qualifier in shot put
2003: Earned first varsity letter ... played much of season as a blocking TE (wearing No. 82) ... first true freshman OL to see action during the Alvarez era ... started at DE vs. Auburn in Music City Bowl and assisted on seven tackles
High School: No. 4 offensive tackle in the nation according to Tom Lemming … among top 20 offensive tackles nationally, top 25 players in the Midwest and No. 3 player in Wisconsin according to Rivals.com ... PrepStar All-American … second-team All-America offensive tackle according to USA Today … member of Detroit Free Press All-Midwest team … Milwaukee Journal Sentinel first-team all-state defensive lineman and second-team all-state offensive tackle as a senior … also first-team all-state honors at DE from Wisconsin Football Coaches Association and Associated Press … WFCA 2002 Defensive Player of the Year with fellow Badger Justin Ostrowski … 85 tackles and 12 QB sacks as a senior and 70 tackles and eight sacks as a junior … three-time all-conference selection … four-year letterwinner in football, track and basketball … captained football and basketball teams his senior year … finished fifth in nationals in shot put as a junior … all-conference, all-area and all-state selection in shot put and discus … four-year honor roll student … U.S. Army Academic All-America team … coached in football by Rick Synold at Brookfield Central High</p>

<p>High School: One of top 25 offensive tackles in the nation and the No. 3 player in Wisconsin according to Rivals.com … ranked among top 25 players in the Midwest according to Prep Football Report and among top 50 players in the Midwest by SuperPrep … 2004 Gatorade Wisconsin Football Player of the Year … named to Wisconsin Football Coaches Association all-state team in 2004 … two-time, first-team all-conference on offense and two-time second-team all-conference on defense … three-year team MVP and 2004 team captain … “A” honor roll student all four years … football coach was Brad Westphal</p>

<p>High School: Ranked among top 60 players in the Midwest by SuperPrep … All-Lake Erie League selection as a senior after registering 56 tackles, including 12 TFLs … honorable mention all-state as a junior … also lettered in basketball … team captain as a senior … played for same high school that sent former Badger greats Chris Chambers and Lee Evans to Wisconsin … coach was Jim Hodakievic … Lake Erie League 3.0 GPA award recipient</p>

<p>High School: Honorable mention all-state in 2002 … first-team all-area as punter in 2002 and first-team all-area kicker in 2001 … first-team all-conference punter and kicker, as well as receiver his senior year … career 44.3-yard punting average and caught 27 passes for 470 yards and seven TDs … scored 50 points (six TDs plus field goals and PATs) as a senior … three-time letterwinner in football, basketball and baseball … second-team all-conference pitcher as a junior … basketball team captain as a senior … coached by Mike Williquette at Bay Port High … National Honor Society member and honor roll student</p>

<p>High School: All-Midlands selection by Tom Lemming’s Prep Football Report and SuperPrep … first-team all-conference and second-team all-state as a senior … first-team all-state in baseball as a junior … squad’s defensive MVP … saw action at TE, LB, FB and DL … four-year letterwinner in football and three timer in baseball … 98 tackles and three fumble recoveries as a senior … suffered a broken leg as a junior … three-year academic honoree … 3.8 GPA … played for Coach Tim Monty, his father</p>

<p>High School: PrepStar All-American … first-team all-state selection and the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel’s state player of the year as a senior … ranked among top 60 players in the Midwest by SuperPrep … rated among top five players in Wisconsin by Rivals.com … made 122 tackles, intercepted two passes, recovered three fumbles and rushed for 309 yards and seven TDs his final year as a prep … 74 tackles and a fumble recovery as a junior … earned nine high school letters (three each in football, basketball and track) … captained basketball team twice and football squad once … state qualifier in shot put as a junior and senior … National Honor Society member</p>

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Interesteddad, if Swat isn't getting better every year, then why should the costs rise at double the inflation rate every year?

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<p>Oh. OK, I was thinking of "better" as a relative term viz-a-viz the universe of colleges and universities.</p>

<p>In an absolute sense, Swarthmore is "better". For example, in past, the dorms didn't have big screen TVs. There weren't coffee bars and sushi bars on campus. The dining hall did not offer a full vegetarian bar. The school did not provide free broadband internet access. Or, computers everywhere you look. The counseling services were nowhere near as extensive. The range of peer mentoring services (writing center, etc.) did not exist. The rate of study abroad was lower. There was not instruction in Japanese or Arabic or extensive programs in Asian, African, and Middle Eastern studies. There certainly wasn't a science center like today's facilities. 50 years ago, there had never been a music major, or a dance major, or a theater major at Swarthmore, now these are all supported with fancy facilities and solid programs. It is very easy to see why college is more expensive today than it was back in the day. The offerings are much more extensive and much fancier.</p>

<p>Having said all that, the biggest reason for the increased costs at these schools is the rapid escalation in benefits, especially the rising healthy insurance costs. Colleges are extremely labor intensive operations, especially colleges with extremely small class sizes and a large percentage of tenure-track faculty positions.</p>

<p>In constant 2005 dollars, the per student operating expense at Swarthmore has increased from $24,000 in 1980 to $69,000 in 2005.</p>

<p>Another issue that has to be raised. Colleges like Swarthmore are intentionally raising their sticker prices as they move to a "progressive pricing" strategy with wealthy students paying higher prices to subsidize lower prices for need-based aid student. This trend is explicitly stated.</p>

<p>In constant 2005 dollars, the per student operating expense at Swarthmore has increased from $24,000 in 1980 to $69,000 in 2005, an increase of 287%</p>

<p>Sticker price (in 2005 dollars) has increased from $17,000 to $39,000, an increase of 229%.</p>

<p>Average financial aid discounts (in 2005 dollars) have increased from $5,800 to $21,000, an increase of 362%. The percentage of students receiving financial aid discounts has increased from 39% to 50%.</p>

<p>Operating costs (in constant dollars) have increased faster than sticker price and much faster than net price. Net price as a percentage of operating expenses is a much better "deal" today than it was 25 years ago, on average "a better buy", albeit for a more expensive product.</p>