@ucbalumnus “Making such a list can be more tedious than it seems, since many colleges do not maintain a centralized list of what majors may be restricted.”
You are absolutely right. I was hoping that the cumulative knowledge of posters here would allow a decent list to be compiled. I think many people would benefit from that.
This was more active on the Parents Forum. Maybe some of the people that were posting there will find this and add some info.
It may be easier to find if a specific major (e.g. business, CS, physics) is a restricted on at various schools under consideration.
There are likely a number of schools where most majors are unrestricted (assuming good academic standing and completion of enough prerequisite courses to allow on-time graduation in the major), but a few are. Examples (which offer engineering):
Harvard: majors unrestricted except visual environmental studies
California State University, Chico: majors unrestricted except for nursing and music
Sure it might have been more active in the Parents Forum, but if you look back at the last 5 pages of comments, a lot of them were either just repeating other comments or not adding anything constructive. More active does not equal more helpful.
Ooooh… so that’s why this thread had so many posts. I had not realized it stated as a Parent thread.
It was double posted in both forums. The mods just merged the two.
@Much2learn
I’m going off memory from my D’s search last year, but as far as being admitted to the “overall school” where you can chose (for the most part) any major you want.
So, off the top of my head to start the list:
Stanford
MIT
CIT
Princeton
Brown
Harvey Mudd
RPI has that option - but you have to apply as “unrestricted” - don’t know if that requires better stats than applying to specific major.
There are many more, but I’m pretty sure about these (without looking them up.)
And an important note that MANY schools told her that, as a general rule, it is almost always fairly easy to move from Engineering into the LA schools - (Say CAS (or is it SAS these days?) at Penn from SEAS,) unless there is a specifically oversubscribed or specialty major or one that requires musical or artist or performance. As far as Business Undergrad - some, like Wharton, Mich and USC are as competitive if not more competitive than the engineering school, and should not be considered a slam dunk, but some schools will almost always take inner-school transfer from engineering since the engineering stats tend to be stronger.)
re #48:
“For example, Stanford students can easily switch to/from engineering majors. However, a Cornell A&S student would have more requirements for transferring to Cornell college of engineering,”
What more requirements would they have?
I mean I don’t know what they do at Stanford, but presumably a mechanical engineering major (for example), intending to complete an accredited degree from there- assuming they offer that- would need to complete a partially specified course sequence, that includes prerequisite math and physics courses, there too. They’d need that at Cornell too. From what I recollect, one can be accepted for transfer at Cornell missing a couple of the engineering-specific courses, but you will have to make them up. You can substitute the CAS- analog math & physics courses for their “brothers” offered at the engineering college.
So I really don’t know what extra “requirements” they would have. Whatever difference in what they come in with, there are certain course sequences and prerequisites required by accreditation to complete the degree, at the end of the day. No matter where you go.
Now they would have to apply to the college for transfer. But that process primarily confirms that they can do the work, and have some sane plan. I guess the application itself is the “extra requirements” you were referring to?
The application itself was no big deal, when I did it. I switched the other way though, from engineering to CAS. Plus, my application was written on papyrus, things may have changed…
I guess the difference is, if you stink it up in the relevant prerequisite courses at Stanford you could presumably still go on to try your luck in the engineering program? Despite the evidence suggesting that it might not be the best place for you. Whereas if you stink it up in the relevant prerequisite courses at Cornell, the College of Engineering may not accept your transfer application, If that happened, in my opinion they’d be doing you a favor. Though you might not feel that way about it when it happens…
In terms of ease of transfer from engineering to business-UVA would be another one where it would be tough. The McIntire School of Commerce is very competitive (and you don’t enter it until your third year generally) and there are prerequisites that you need to have before being considered.
@CaliDad2020 Thank you! I pasted your list below and added Lehigh and Case Western.
So, off the top of my head to start the list:
Stanford
MIT
CIT
Princeton
Brown
Lehigh
Case Western Reserve
Harvey Mudd
RPI has that option - but you have to apply as “unrestricted” - don’t know if that requires better stats than applying to specific major.
@Calidad2020 At Penn SEAS to CAS I think you do have to apply, but it is almost always accepted. CAS to SEAS is usually accepted too, if they are comfortable you can do the work. Wharton is difficult to transfer into because few students give up the seat.
Cornell is not a slam dunk to transfer to business either.
Right, it was a parent asking about the differences in resources and job outcomes in the different flavors of engineering programs. That isn’t an example of “how hard is it to get in”, “price”, “how were things from a parent’s pespective” or other such things. It does lend itself to delving into the question of fit, which were mentioned in the Engineering Forum version of this post before the two were merged so I don’t see how that is something the Parents Forum monopolizes. Most around here are proponents of finding the right fit as one of the more important aspects of searching for a college.
So sure, it was a parent asking and not an engineer, but the sorts of questions are very well-suited to those of us who have been through these programs before, and especially those of us who are somehow involved with these issues (e.g. professors and hiring managers, of which we have several around here).
Sure, the Parents Forum is a more active group (typically) and can probably fill in a larger sample size of programs that were visited with their own child. That’s a potentially valuable contribution to the discussion. However, the average parent, who don’t typically have engineering backgrounds themselves, are not all that familiar with the actual ins and outs of engineering curricula (and especially the pros and cons of the two classes of program) and are not necessarily the most qualified to address this particular question in depth. You are more likely to find those sorts of insights here on the Engineering Forum, even if there are fewer of us typically commenting.
Both points of view are likely helpful to the OP. However, the actual question he/she asked is more properly addressed, IMO, but those of us who are more familiar with engineering curricula, the hiring of engineers, and engineering graduate programs. The unfortunate thing is that since the threads were merged, it probably didn’t leave a link back in the Parents Forum to direct people here in case the OP finds those sorts of comments helpful as well.
@boneh3ad , I agree with you. The most unfortunate thing here is that there was no link to here when it was merged. Lots of people just don’t know much about the sub forums and they are often overlooked.
For Cornell, changing into an engineering major from non engineering is described at
https://www.engineering.cornell.edu/resources/advising/intransfer.cfm
For the topic of finding schools where all or almost all majors are easily changed into if one is in good academic standing (2.0 GPA and/or C grades) and has taken courses needed to graduate in the new major on time, should a new thread with a matching title be made? Perhaps more will see it and comment.
For a student considering grad school , I can see where a big university could provide better undergrad prep in the form of undergrad research. So for that type of student, I get what people are saying. But what percent of undergrad engineering students go on to grad school? I would think it’s pretty small.
Also, I went to a pretty solid, but not elite, state university, and I don’t remember many engineering students doing research. Most barely had time to complete the minimum requirements for the major. I think the whole topic of research opportunities and advanced facilities is very important for those kids planing to go to grad school, but I think we have to be clear about how many, and what types of kids we’re talking about.
I can’t even think of anyone I knew at school who went on to graduate school for engineering. If we’re talking about the typical “strong in Math and Science kid” who’s considering Bucknell and Penn State or Lafayette and Binghamton, is grad school preparation really a major concern? I wouldn’t think so, unless the kid already knows that they want to go to grad school.
I’ve never looked at the engineering departments of any of the smaller schools like Bucknell or Lafayette. I’m going to check it out, but I’m curious, are the course requirements themselves the same? Do the kids at Bucknell take fewer engineering courses overall than the kids at Penn State?
I know that for Math and Computer Science, the number of required courses in the major is lower at the LACs, and I don’t like that. I personally think the kids would come out under-prepared for getting a job - forget about grad school. I have no personal experience with this. It’s just my personal opinion from looking at the topics they cover and the number of electives available.
Is the same thing true for engineering? Do the kids at the LACs come out with fewer engineering courses? For me, that would be a much bigger issue than the research opportunities. Even if the number of required courses is lower, if the students can still take all of the courses a typical engineering student would take at a big state university, I would go to the LAC. Engineering is brutal. It’s not the kind of thing you want to be self-studying, the way many kids do at the big universities.
For the super bright kids, I can see where a big university would offer more. Those kids can probably self-study their way right through the undergraduate curriculum, but for the average engineering student, I think the additional personal attention they’d receive at a LAC could make a huge difference in how much they learn.
The curricula are largely the same, as mandated by ABET. The biggest difference is in the breadth of electives that are offered since larger, tier 1 research universities have more faculty with more diverse research backgrounds than at lower (research) tier schools since faculty generally teach electives based on their research experience. This means that students have the option to explore more areas of interest, giving them a little bit more opportunity to narrow down what specific areas they might want to pursue in graduate study for those that know they want to go that route. For students who did not previously consider that option, it means there are more opportunities to be inspired by an elective that may not be offered at smaller programs to consider graduate school (as was the case with me).
The other thing Larger, tier 1 research universities generally have is a greater breadth of undergraduate research opportunities, both in terms of subject area and in terms of scale. Many small programs have a fair number of research opportunities available, but the diversity of subfields will comparativey small. Further, it is unlikely that small programs will offer opportunities for research in facilities that require a large capital investment such as wind tunnels (to borrow an example from my own field).
Of course, as I said before, one defining characteristic of the large programs is, obviously, their size. It is much easier, intentionally or not, to blend in and become an anonymous face in the classroom. A student will need to be more proactive to secure research positions or personal relationships with faculty at the large program.
Many students never really take advantage of those opportunities at tier 1 research programs. This may be due to a lack of desire to stick out or perhaps a discomfort with doing so in such a large crowd (which goes back to the issue of smaller programs being a better fit for many people).
Further, many of these researchbenefits really primarily apply to students who think they may be interested in graduate school and want to explore the research world a bit. However, the majority of students get a BS and then go straight to work. For them, it is much more about finding a place they feel comfortable and where they can succeed in their studies. Of course, the additional breadth of electives ought to be factored in. Whether the best place for a given person is more like Purdue or more like Bucknell is a highly personal decision. There won’t likely be a dearth of good jobs either way; Bucknell will just likely be more regionally limited.
To add to what @boneh3ad has mentioned, for example, GTech offers the following threads for their BS Comp Science
along with recommended courses:
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/threads-better-way-learn-cs
a) Devices
b) Info Internetworks
c) Intelligence
d) Media
e) Modeling and Simulation
f) People
g) Systems & Architecture
h) Theory
This is the type of breadth (or depth) that smaller/less specialized univs just can’t offer.
Bucknell (which has come up a few times now) actually has some very detailed info online about where their graduates are ending up. http://www.bucknell.edu/Documents/CDC/2015PostGradReport.pdf
Virginia Tech does as well. The link is in post #27 under Employment: Employers, Job Titles, Locations.
In #17, it was mentioned that Amazon and Deloitte were among the most common employers for Virginia Tech grads and that they have locations in the region. Most of the people going to Deloitte did seem to end up in the DC area (hours from Virginia Tech) , some of the Amazon hires went to the DC area as well but more ended up in Seattle and California in 2015. Virginia Tech grads are very well represented in the DC and surrounding area but are also well recruited nationally.
Some schools are more forthcoming with this kind of information that others. Bucknell and VT provide some pretty detailed info. If a school is of interest, you can check and see what info they have online.
Personally, I liked my path (Clarkson - smallish, but mostly STEM majors). Back in the 1980s, it had even less grad school/research focus, but that was fine with me. During freshman year it was handy that most friends were taking similar classes. Also there were a lot of options for upperclassman electives. Obviously one of the disadvantages is lack of diverse campus majors. (And for that particular example, cold and dreary winters). But no regrets here.