@boneh3ad Sorry to intrude on your turf, as I was only offering what anybody on CC could see was an uninformed opinion. Nice job of eviscerating everything I wrote. Except my last bit ‘If there is an advantage in grad school for grads of bigger schools, I’d want to see a study, not depend on one prof’s opinion.’ Or one poster’s opinion.
I don’t care about my “turf”. I care that people coming here get helpful answers to their questions, and I try to help out with that where I can.
A different perspective…
Last year I watched a speech by Robert Birgeneau, who was Chancellor at UC-Berkeley from 2004 to 2013, but also spent 25 years at MIT (as Chair of the Physics Department and then Dean of Science).
He stated that, while at MIT, he used to prefer selecting grad students from large state public universities over those coming from smaller, elite, well-funded programs. He felt that to succeed at a large public research university, where students didn’t get much hand holding, was a good indicator of someone that would show more initiative and not need to be micromanaged in the lab.
In this case, being “prepared” involved more than taking the right classes, or working in a lab.
102 "He stated that, while at MIT, he used to prefer selecting grad students from large state public universities over those coming from smaller, elite, well-funded programs. He felt that to succeed at a large public research university, where students didn’t get much hand holding, was a good indicator of someone that would show more initiative and not need to be micromanaged in the lab."
Thanks for bringing this up @Gator88NE . This point is not emphasized enough in highlighting one of the benefits of a larger school. I attended one (IIT Bombay) and fortunately could convince my D2 to do likewise (she is at GTech). I always considered a LAC or a smaller school to be an extension of a high school, like “being in a cocoon”. And more so in her case as she is a woman about to enter a male-dominated work stream (Mechanical Eng).
^^ I see your point but I have a different perspective. I don’t believe the smaller programs provide “handholding” so much as easier access to professors and resources.
Have you ever read the book “Quiet” by Susan Cain? In it she describes how educational institutions often do a disservice to introverted students by rewarding the outgoing, more “in your face” (and I don’t mean that derogatory) students who are perceived as being more assertive. Her data show that it is a fallacy that quieter, more introspective students are not as valuable/productive.
“Still waters run deep” describes my son to a T. He would be overlooked in a big research U for undergrad. In a small school he has been able to do things (be a TA, attend conferences, go to prof’s houses for dinner) because he sees his profs daily and does not have to make himself heard over a large chorus of voices.
Of course there are students whose personalities are much more suited to a big U, who would feel claustrophobic on a 300 acre campus with only 3000 kids and that’s fine too.
I don’t believe you can say that one environment or the other produces better grads. Each environment is suited to helping different types of kids.
I’m not sure that you are all that familiar with big state university programs, to be honest. There is
Nothing preventing quieter, more introspective students from succeeding there. There is definitely the issue of fit for different students, but I’d argue that doesn’t have a lot to do with being introspective or not, as there is a wide mix of successful personalities in those large programs.
However, fit is an issue for graduate programs as well, and I don’t think it is unreasonable that students that fit one sort of undergraduate program may be more predisposed than others to fitting into a graduate program.
@boneh3ad I did not say introverts can;t succeed at big research U’s. The OP question was whether smaller schools provide an inferior education/less prep for graduate work. I was merely pointing out that I think an introvert MIGHT be more prepped for grad school coming from a smaller school due to his/her personality and fit with the school.
As I said earlier, you can get a quality education at both types of institutions. That is what I really objected to in the OP - the idea that you can make a blanket statement that big U > small LAC.
And I am trying to say that I don’t think that large programs have anything that would inherently disadvantage introverts.
@Gator88NE, there certainly is a toughening that happens in more sink or swim environments. When I was in optometry school it was pretty apparent who had learned to fend for themselves and who hadn’t.
By this, do you mean weed-out schools where students must compete for admission to their majors after they enroll in a first year pre-engineering program (e.g. Texas A&M, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Ohio State, etc.) or where the requirements to stay in the major are significantly higher than those needed to stay in good academic standing (e.g. Wisconsin)?
@PetulaClark I came in “late in the game” as well, and hopefully did not intrude on anyone’s “turf”. I believe any perspective is valuable, folks can take what they want and “leave” the rest. Hopefully all who are viewing this thread are open to different perspectives. That is what is great about CC…much info and differing views…allowing many folks to see other peoples thoughts and experiences. Thanks for your views and thanks to everyone else for their views as well! All of it has the potential to help as students and parents navigate through the application process, as well as choosing a college and particular programs!
@4kids2graduate Thanks. We all have different views and biases. Mine are skewed toward to encouraging students to consider smaller colleges. This is especially true for professions like nursing or engineering where you are accepted into your major and not risk being weeded out in huge warehouse classes that dominate large universities.
@ucbalumnus, I went to a large Midwestern land grant university and had to take part in the huge warehouse classes @PetulaClark references. When there are 600 students in your class, you have to learn to fend for yourself. I don’t necessarily advocate it for others now. There are rigorous programs that still don’t coddle students that have far better student to teacher ratios. I think they’re more conducive to learning. Having survived the former did however have merits in a sink or swim sort of way.
Without a doubt, smaller classes and better advising is better than huge auditorium classes and limited advising. That alone is a reason for many to choose smaller schools over larger state schools.
However, the state schools do have their advantages. I’m going to use Bucknell as an example, since they are referenced in the original post and have a solid engineering program. However, not all small schools are equal (same with state schools). I’ll also use UF and GT as examples, since that’s what I know.
Cost and Access
In-state tuition rates make the state schools, on average, much more affordable than smaller, private schools. For many students, this is the only factor that matters. Many state schools also take transfer students from CC’s. In Florida, I would think about 20 to 25% of graduating engineers started off at a local CC.
Depth and Breath
Bucknell offers engineering degrees in 6 fields. UF’s COE offers 18 degrees, from Agricultural Engineering to Nuclear. For the fall 2016 semester, Georgia Tech is offering 23 “approved” Mechanical Engineering electives, with classes like Hybrid Vehicle Powertrains to Structural Vibrations. Bucknell is offering 4 “600” level ME classes (this semester), plus senior design/independent study.
When doing our college search for DD14 and now DS17, these two factors were/are most important. For DD14, we wanted the best program we could afford, that also offered a well respected Industrial Engineering program. With DS17, we’re looking at affordable schools that offer strong Aerospace programs. We’ll balance cost with quality, as best we can.
Smaller classes (and better advising) at a smaller private school is very appealing, but for us, it’s not going to happen (outside of getting into a lottery school).
Bringing this back to the original question around preparation for Grad school, and ease of finding that first job.
At most State schools, an undergraduate that wants to do research, doesn’t usually get much help from their advisor. It’s up to them to approach a professor and sell them on letting them join their lab. Once in the lab, it’s up to them to perform. This is the “sink or swim” I was referencing, not getting through weed out classes. Only a small percentage of undergraduates at these large state schools participate in research. It’s very much a self-selected group.
On employment, in general, large state schools are more heavily recruited for engineers. Employers will develop a list of schools that they will actively recruit. That list almost always includes the large state schools. Employers tend to go where the employees are to recruit.
Bucknell’s Fall Employer Expo, averages over 550 students and 100 employers participate (for all majors, including engineering),. UF’s Fall Showcase Career fair is a two day event, that averages between 6,500 and 8,500 students and close to 400 employees. Over 170 employers where recruiting engineers. “Directional” Schools like UCF and USF had over 100 employees, recruiting engineers, at their career fairs.
Employers will work to build “relationships” with these large engineering programs. They will sponsor design teams, competitions, or even just buy the Pizza at the next ASME meeting.
An engineer from Bucknell isn’t going to have a hard time finding a job, but one at a large state school will be more heavily recruited. It’s easier to met employers on campus, setup interviews, and network at large schools. Small school graduates will have to work harder at these things, though at the end of the day, they are still just as likely to land that first job.
@Gator88NE Your last 2 posts are excellent descriptions of the differences between small and large schools for engineering. (Smaller classes and more personal advising vs costs and wider alumni connections and breadth of immediate employers). These can be generalized for other fields of study as well. My D13 is an Animal Studies major at NCSU. As a senior, she still has classes of over 100 (even in her major) but she does not mind, and she’d not have Animal Studies as an option at an LAC. She will be able to get employed right out of college and, as you referenced, a wide selection of employers. D17 wants to major in env studies and go to grad school, and is only applying to smaller schools. It always comes down to fit, and cost.
@Gator88NE, my son originally thought he wanted a LAC environment engineering program, so we visited all the usual suspects. It quickly became apparent that, as you’ve pointed out, they lack depth and breadth. All one need do is pull up the IPEDS data to see how many engineering courses they offer. Some of them are under 50. Penn State in contrast is over 1000. Visiting was simply the icing on the cake, facilities are very limited.
He pivoted to narrow his focus to schools with strong curricula, good facilities that were accessible to undergrads, early access to real engineering courses, and small class sizes. There are a few that fit that tight criteria including WPI, RPI, Lehigh and Cal Poly.
He ended up in ME at Poly. It was/is the ideal blend of qualities he was looking for, plus it’s in a great location. Being a CSU, it’s affordable, even out of state. They don’t offer PhDs, so the facilities are all undergrad centric. They have over 80 labs in the college of engineering alone. It’s competitive, especially for ME, AE and CS, but based on what your son is looking for I’d highly recommend he at least look at it. PM me if you have any questions.
@eyemgh, has your son had any difficulty getting into the classes he wants/needs?
@hopeyhippie, not really. Not long ago, due to budgetary reasons, it was a problem. There weren’t enough sections and they way the did registration priority could sometimes disadvantage upperclassmen. Both of those things have changed. There are some caveats though. The curriculum is longer than 4 years. It’s 200 hours, where as all the other non-engineering degrees are 180. If a student stays even one quarter longer, it counts as 5 years. The secret is to never dodge times, never get too dead set on a particular professor and to be very forward looking and organized in schedule planning. Due to sequencing of the final stretch of the curriculum my son will take four full years. He brought in enough AP and loaded his quarters early on when classes weren’t as demanding that he’ll only have 5 classes left his fourth year. He’ll spend the balance taking graduate classes that will apply to a 4+1 Masters. Depending on his thesis, he might finish early, but worst case will walk with a BS/MS in 5 years. Hope that helps.
@eyemgh, yes, thank you. Several years ago my niece had difficulty getting into her final few classes. Glad they have at least somewhat addressed it. Although with 35% or so of engineering students OOS, it probably is a moot point for my California native son. 