As others have said, it’s a very personal decision. For us, full pay at the one elite school my D applied to and was accepted (Harvard) was not tempting given the excellent full ride options at a number of flagships. It was a no-brainer for us. Given how things have worked out, I can’t say that she could have had a better experience or had better experiences out of the elite school (top paying internships at elite firms alongside elite school grads). She’s having exactly the experience she wanted - big school, big sports, surrounded by really smart overachievers in the honors program, great profs, lots of opportunities (in fact too many opportunities), world travel, and a great social life. She’ll have no debt and a six-figures head start when she graduates. She’s never had a class taught by a TA, btw, and has had multiple classes with less than 10 students. She’ll also graduate with a masters degree in a very lucrative field.
Being a big fish at a lower ranked school can have a much better ROI than being middle of the pack at a top school that you pay $300k to attend. After all, the top kids at the elite schools are the ones getting the few elite positions posters on CC like to use as examples of unique opportunities only available to students at elite schools. Lots of examples of other students at her school getting similar results. I bet on my kid instead of the school and it has worked out as expected. Our ROI is fantastic. So I placed on value on the higher ranked school given the alternatives. But to each their own. It won’t be the same calculus for other families.
Btw, especially during this time of year, D cant imagine how students go to schools without good football teams. lol
I think this is a key point…if you have to struggle and go into debt for most or all of the cost at a “highly selective college” than it’s a different conversation than if you have saved for most or all of the cost of attendance. My D20 is looking at a few highly highly selective private colleges and if we had not saved a good chunk of money in her college savings plan, these expensive reach colleges would not even be an option. But since we have already ear-marked $'s for her college education I don’t have a problem with giving her the best education I can, even if it costs a lot of money.
Lastly, when the kids were little, we purposefully moved to a very good public school district so we didn’t have to pay for expensive, private schools. The money we saved went into their college fund to use for undergrad or grad school. I don’t have a problem using this money for its intended purpose, giving my kids as many college options as possible to arrive at “best fit”.
I believe a UM Amherst CS grad is in the top notch second group. As I’ve mentioned.
Caltech Stanford MIT CMU and GT. Are outliers. If you get into one of these schools. Go for it! if it’s affordable. I agree some it is some amalgam of prestige, tech focus and broad student excellence.
If it’s not affordable in a relative sense to your family and future. It’s not worth it. Period.
There’s not a real economic delta for the superstar that can get into mit coming out of the UMass Amherst level school. They’ll be stars anyway.
Our son just graduated from an Ivy League school and got a great job in his field. However, he started college figuring he would major in something like political science or philosophy, but ended up majoring in computer science and math. Had we known that at the outset–which of course neither he nor we could have–it might not have been the best choice of school since it’s a great school but not known for its computer science department! So the unknowns going into college are greater than the knowns, thus you can’t quantify or predict value, and just hope in the end you feel that you got your money’s worth!
You can major in CS at one of the top schools and go on to very high paying jobs IF you’ve had the right experience. I know one kid who went home every summer instead of taking one of those well paid summer internships that are really auditions for those entry level jobs. ROI is related highly to what the student puts into it.
My younger son is a Naval Officer - he could have that position from any college. But the education he got has uniquely prepared him for his job.
“My close friend attended Yale undergrad and Yale medical school and you can bet he got the one of the best pre-med educations in the world. It’s not about the “prestige” but everything to do with the actual education one receives. Some colleges just do I better job of it than others. Fact…”
That’s a one person anecdote and doesn’t change the fact if you’re going pre-med you’re much better off trying to spend as little as possible on it. And Yale’s pre-med program is weed out, and if you do manage to be selected by the Yale pre-med committee, then yes, you’re in very good shape.
There have been many attempts to quantify the value of attending more selective schools. Studies that have controls for individual student characteristics usually find little or no financial value in attending more selective colleges. The classic example is the Dale and Krueger study, which found that average earnings were similar among students who applied to and were accepted to a similar set of colleges, regardless of which college those students chose to attend. In short, the individual students and their backgrounds were the driving force for their future earnings, rather than college selectivity.
However, such studies also find that control variables only explain a small fraction of the variation in earnings. While the average expected return in earnings may be similar, there will be huge variation among individual students, and many additional factors influence that variation. Some students may be pushed to new heights when being surrounded by stellar classmates, while others may perform best as a big fish at a not as selective college and have special opportunities with that status. Some colleges also tend to better assist with particular academic or career goals than others. Different colleges have different recruiting and other location dependent factors. Cost is often completely different at different colleges and varies from student to student, due to merit and need based scholarships, among other factors. College can impact numerous factors that do not correlate well financial ROI, such as future life path and future happiness . There is no simple rule. Instead the best option depends on the particular student.
You mentioned comparing your state flagship to top ranked CS colleges. Rather than just look at average earnings, you might consider things like at which college the student is most likely to complete the desired CE/CS major , which often has a high attrition rate? Do any of the colleges limit or may it difficult to enter CE/CS, or difficult to change paths? Which colleges offer the CE alternative (not all that you listed offer this)? Which college best supports other interests besides CE/CS – academic, career, ECs, etc. Does the student prefer to stay in state at a lower salary and cost of living, or would he prefer to move to SV at higher salary and higher cost of living? At which college would the student likely to be happiest? Etc.
At which college would the student likely to be happiest? For me this sums it up - go where you will be happy. A happy student is a successful student!
I work at a very selective school. It’s a lot different than the state school my son chose over both another highly selective school and the one where I work (which would have been free).
While the state school and elite colleges all have small classes in his tech major and none are taught by TAs, the highly selective colleges have an extremely limited number of sections. Small classes are great if you can get in. If you can’t get in, you have to pick a major that does have open seats. The state public has many sections at different times, so it’s not difficult to find one that fits your schedule.
The professors at the school where I work enjoy interacting with students and do a lot of mentoring. So do the professors at the state school. But the elite college has a revolving door of short term visitors. A third or more of the faculty in any department may be visitors, so the mentor your kid chooses as a freshman may be long gone by the time they’re a sophomore.
People talk about world class faculty and world class educations available at elite colleges, but I’m not really seeing much difference. Some of the professors where I work have PhDs from elite colleges, but many attended state schools. And those visitors – they aren’t highly touted, brilliant innovators in their fields. They’re recent PhD recipients starting their careers or professors who haven’t been able to land a tenured position even though they’ve been in the field for a good number of years. Some are great, but some are horrible.
If you get a terrible professor at a state school you can drop the class and choose another section. Or you can postpone the class for a semester or more to get the professor you want. Elite schools may not have another section. Even if they do, the same professor may teach both. If there is a second section taught by a different professor chances are it’s already full.
Do elite colleges have more money to spend on students (to send them to conferences and other programs)? Sure. That’s great if your kid is awarded one. Not so great if they’re not.
Do some students from elite colleges end up with great jobs after graduation? Yes, but so do the kids from the state school. A lot depends on the student and what their record shows.
So what you spend, and where, depends a lot on the individual schools. See where your kid gets accepted and compare programs. My son will graduate in May with no debt and he already has a job lined up that will net him more than my spouse makes after 25 years at a state job. And he’s happy. I consider that a win.
Just comparing one major $$ outcome from school to school is the easy part. When incoming freshman ask our college students why they chose their school, they answer “because I wanted to me more than an engineer”. Your CS student may want to combine CS with linguistics, art and media design, bioinformatics…
Our CBE student wanted to research under the medical school, and take law and health care management classes.
Yes, it takes a mature student far along in their academic choice path to be able to tour colleges at 17 and identify the “why here” attributes, but sometimes it happens. It seems that those students are more likely to be accepted.
Often selective schools with huge endowments focus on interdisciplinary research and studies. Undergraduate research opportunities are endless. Then there are the fully funded teams and clubs, great mentors and alumni network that extends not just locally but worldwide.
Is it worth it? Who knows? We definitely had detailed discussions about what they would participate in that would have not been available at our state flagship or a lower tier private with merit.
This was our experience with D1 at 1500 student selective LAC. She loved it and had great education but would not have sent her without major scholarship. D2 at large in-state honors program had mostly classes ranging from 12-25 students and did get to form close relationships with professors she is still in contact with 4 years later.
Financial decisions are personal and for me ROI is hard because it assumes student ends up in the field that he/she picked the school for. Among D2’s highly motivated honors peers, about half changed majors including a number that started in STEM fields. So what if you pick a school highly rated for CS at larger cost and posssibly debt based on potential salary and they change course and decide to be a teacher or social worker or minister or some other vaunted but low paying job?
going to throw another dimension to the debate: fit.
Not every kid fits at every school… so while this “elite LAC” vs. “state flagship” academic discussion is part of it, so is fit.
Will the kid do well navigating a larger state U? If they need their hand held more, then maybe a smaller school is a better option.
Is the kid a sports fan and want to be involved with a strong basketball/football culture? If they aren’t a rah rah fan, then maybe the smaller school is a good option.
Every kid is wired differently. Frequently, there is more to it than just pure ROI.
Everything is anecdotal. We all find those stories to justify our experiences and our lens. What about the kid who went to an expensive elite LAC who is a teacher? That kid will probably never justify that cost, but maybe there was more to it in the decision. There are also differences between state flagship recruiting - so don’t lump them all together.
What about study abroad? Everyone offers it … but I am amazed at the quantity of offerings from a public flagship. Everything from traditional semester abroad to embedded programs with a study abroad component during spring/winter break to Maymester classes with a professor. You name the continent and they have it. I’m jealous!
talk to your kid. figure out where they will enjoy themselves and have fun. Because if they are miserable outside of the classroom, that will carry into academics. Encourage them to find that balance and where they can have their amazing 4 years. It is a balance and academics … while a major element … is only one component of fit.
I don’t think there is a way to quantify this in the way you describe. My daughter recently graduated from a well regarded state university…her friend (CS) landed a job slightly under 6 figures.
If I saved the money for a highly selective school, and if my child was accepted and wanted to attend…I would not hesitate to spend the money. That’s what it’s there for. If I could not afford it, I would not do it.
We didn’t investigate salaries by major at various schools. Honestly…that never even crossed my mind. We looked at other things such as undergraduate research opportunities, how intro lecture halls (if any) are taught (is there active learning taking place or is it mainly passive listening?), do students develop relationships with professors, what do students do on the weekends? How active are the clubs…how passionate are the students? Are there volunteering opportunities?
I am a firm believer that a student accepted to Princeton can be a superstar at a lower ranked school…barring anything such as mental health issues etc. I also recognize that graduating from a top school does not guarantee anybody a “golden ticket.” I have a family member who attended a top LAC and never had an internship…she is still sitting on the couch. My acquaintance’s son attended an Ivy…he always struggled to find internships…even as an engineering major. My co-worker’s son graduated from a top LAC and is currently doing office work while he figures out his next move, and my other co-worker’s kid graduated from Duke and is making under $35,000 a year at a non-profit. I think she was a sociology major.
Do students graduate from top schools and move on to well paying careers or grad schools? Yes…of course! I am not implying otherwise. I also recognize that elite schools have a lot to offer. We can’t, however, underestimate the role of the student, their major (which often changes), drive, fit, personality, etc.
I think students who major in engineering or CS can do well at many schools. We read about them all the time on CC. The “value” of the school can be based on other factors…but of course the student needs to take advantage of them.
I think fit, including financial fit, is more important than dollars and cents, even though I also believe parents should try to quantify somewhat the value of an college education when comparing colleges. Obviously it’s hard to do these comparisons when the data is incomplete and even irrelevant. Just like admission data, outcome data isn’t sufficiently granular and knowing some averages isn’t sufficient to draw conclusions because your student likely isn’t an average among that pool.
For most students, the main “fit” factor that overrides everything else is cost and affordability. For traditional students heading to college immediately after high school, this is generally not determined by the student, but by the parents’ financial circumstances and choices.
I.e. if the up front cost of a college is not affordable to the student and parents, then there is no way to access whatever value the college can offer to the student.
“For example, our son wants to major in computer engineering or computer science, for which our state flagship, UMass Amherst, is good.”
I think that there are two issues here. One is in general how do you trade off the cost of education versus the quality of the education and the “fit” between the student and the school. The other is what to do in the specific case of a CS major who is in-state for U.Mass Amherst.
I have worked with a very large number of software engineers who are graduates from U.Mass Amherst. I have also worked with quite a few software engineers who are graduates from MIT and Stanford. U.Mass Amherst is VERY good for CS. The top graduates that I work with from there are just as strong as the top graduates from MIT and Stanford. I could (but will not) easily name multiple really top people with really top jobs (and a few without a job because they retired rich) who graduated from there. If given the chance to study CS at the same cost at either U.Mass or Harvard, personally I would probably choose U.Mass, or choose whichever one the student felt more comfortable at. MIT or Stanford or CMU would be a harder decision. These are top schools for CS, but are also very academically demanding. If able to pay, I might pay for MIT or Stanford or CMU, but only if the student really wanted to do it. One thing that might make me more willing to pay in this case is that CS is a major where you really can be done with your education with your bachelor’s degree.
The more general question is probably more difficult. In our experience there was not much correlation between the academic reputation of the school and what it would cost us. For example, McGill is the highest ranked university that either daughter was accepted to, and was also one of the least expensive (it would have cost us less than our in-state flagship). However, this is due to factors that are specific to us. The most expensive schools that either daughter got into were Northeastern and BU. We ruled them out due to cost (we would have been full pay). However, in retrospect they would have been a bad fit for our children. Again this is due to factors that are specific to us. Right now I am paying an absurdly small amount for a school with a very strong program in my younger daughter’s major, and she is getting great opportunities such as research projects and a coop. She knows her professors and loves her school. Again however this is due to factors that are pretty much specific to her. I think that each student and each set of parents needs to find a school that fits them. There are so many factors to consider, including cost, and they are going to vary so widely from student to student.
Neither of our daughters went to the school that would have been the least expensive. Both went to schools that were relatively reasonably priced, were a good fit, and had very strong programs in what they ended up majoring in. Given that both changed their majors, this last point might have been mostly luck.
In general I think that the overall ranking of universities is given too much consideration. Individual fit and individual programs matter a lot. Avoiding debt also matters a lot.
I can only talk about Carnegie Mellon where my oldest son studied CS. None of what @austinmshauri mentions is true there. Since it’s a stand alone school, you can’t get frozen out of any courses. There are enough sections of any course and often multiple choices. Uneven professors are common at all schools and you don’t always realize you have the dud until it’s too late to switch. It’s a little hard to tell, but I think SCS has a dozen or so visiting profs at least 80 professors, and a bunch of people with titles like “research scientist”. I’m actually more worried about the overuse of adjunct professors. There were a handful of them.
What I wanted for my kid was for him to be in classes where he was no longer the smartest one in the room. He got that in spades in his classes at Carnegie-Mellon. He also found not just a handful, but lots of kids with similar interests outside the classroom. He had access to great internships, including having to scramble for a second internship when the 2008 economy collapse made the first one go away. The CMU alumni network is amazing and my not very outgoing kid was totally plugged into it. My kid graduated in the middle of his class, but got a job he loves at Google. Could it have happened from a state university? Some perhaps, I have my doubts about any of the SUNYs.
We didn’t mind paying, but if we’d had to borrow money the ROI would not have been an issue. He could have easily paid of any loans within two or three years.