Question About Ivy League Admission

Applying to College
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<p>In response to ParentOfIvyHope:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Not true. You should be highly ranked, but you need not be the best of the best at your school. My HS class sent one person to Harvard, and she may or may not have been in the top 5. I got into Stanford, and I certainly wasn’t.</p></li>
<li><p>True, but for those of us who aren’t good at sports and don’t enjoy them, joining a sport would be a waste of time.</p></li>
<li><p>I disagree that debate is necessary for getting in. However, debate will sharpen skills the the OP will need as a lawyer, so it’s a good idea.</p></li>
<li><p>Neither of these are necessary. Editor of the school newspaper is a position that’s only really for those with interests in journalism. Student body president, at many schools, is a mere popularity contest that ought to mean little or nothing in college admissions.</p></li>
<li><p>Harvard does not require four years of history. On their admissions website, they state that there are no coursework requirements, with the standard spiel about “most rigorous courseload available”. An “ideal program” includes three years of history.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>And to the OP, remember that you go to law school AFTER undergrad. If you want to go to Harvard law, you need not be admitted to Harvard undergrad. You can do pre-law somewhere else, then apply to Harvard for law school. Of course, going to Harvard or a school of similar caliber for undergrad is a good thing to shoot for anyway.</p>

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<p>I thought it is actually more difficult to go from Harvard undergrad to Harvard grad since they don’t want to accept people from the same school.</p>

<p>And yeah, you don’t necessarily have to follow a strict set of rules and formulas to garner an admission to a top college, that’s pretty common knowledge. I see no worries in trying to be stressed already.</p>

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<p>THank you Invoyable and Sly Si</p>

<p>I got a little worried for a while…</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Sure you could. Debate’s great, but if it’s not your passion or interest, so be it; find another.
Why exclusively Harvard Law school as your goal?
And Harvard Law accepts plenty of students from “not name brand colleges.”</p>

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<p>ParentofIvyHope, this isn’t India, ok? There is no set formula of Varsity Athlete + Editor of Newspaper + Student Body President + Valedictorian + High SAT’s = Ivy League Acceptance. Harvard and other top schools turn down plenty of editors, student body presidents, and valedictorians. Become an interesting, well-rounded person, not the kind of loser who just accumulates activities for the sake of checking the boxes on college applications.</p>

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<p>I don’t say things that I cannot back up with facts. My intentions are to help op if he is focussed on getting into a top college. It takes consistent efforts over the four years of high school.
Sly SI: Let me confronts your points

  1. Unless you are from a brand name prep high school; you chances of getting into HYPS is negligible if you are not in top 5 students.
  2. Even if you are not good at sports; participating in one will provide you team experience substitute that with some other team activity.
  3. if you want to be a lawyer and want to getinto HYPS applying for such a major and have never been involved in the forensic department then just say goodby to your chances. You have to be science geeky type otherwise.
  4. if you are not a science/research type then you will have to apply for arts major; you will need to be involve in leadership role whether being an editor or being president of student body or some other post.
  5. 4 years History is recommended for HYPS and if you want to be lawyer and apply for a major that will help you get in and don’t have 4 years of history then say goodby to your chances. You have to be a science/Engineering major to avoid a 4 years history</p>

<p>I din’t list activites that will be required if someone wants to get into HYPS as a science/Engineering major. For that path there will be separate set of rules.</p>

<p>The list is for some one who is passionate about getting into HYPS. If someone can do these there are more chances that this person will get in than not and you don’t have to pay me $30000 to get this advice which the likes of IvyWest or other counseling firm will do.</p>

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<p>Sly Si (whom I know in real life) didn’t have to be that fanatical to get into Stanford and have a good time there. Getting into Stanford is certainly harder than getting into some of the eight colleges in the Ivy League, so I wouldn’t worry about extreme cases. </p>

<p>For the original poster, I would point to Sly Si’s advice that you should do what makes sense to you. As others have said in this thread, it’s not strictly necessary to go to any particular undergraduate college to end up at a particular professional school. All the law schools in the country take students from a variety of undergraduate colleges.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl : You cannot defy logic whether it is US or anyother part of the world. There are certain things that are just logical and if you do those it will certainly increase your chances of acceptances at HYPS.</p>

<p>It is a fact that the valedictorian at my D school if has a SAT1 score > 2300 will not be denied by HYPS. It has never happened.</p>

<p>So there has to be some logic behind admissions even if it is a crap shot for most of the applicants.</p>

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<p>While POIH has some good tips, I disagree with saying they are required (debate, sports, 4 yrs history, val or top 5 in a well known school)</p>

<p>I had NONE of those qualifications yet I was admitted to all schools applied, eventually matriculating at an HYP.<br>
My thoughts specifically:</p>

<ol>
<li>Get the highest possible grades: Of course but a stray B here and there won’t kill you. It is competitive but once a certain level of academic achievement is met, the ultra competitives look for in-tangibles. I got Bs in Honors Chem my junior year (took AP Chem as a Senior). On my app, I stated Chem Engineering as a proposed major. How about 'dem apples? Also three of the schools I turned down were top ten engineering schools.</li>
</ol>

<p>you need to be a Valedictorian or in the top 5 if not from a name brand high school. – completely disagree. If that academic “spark” is evident (thru your class choices and classroom achievement and your teacher recs), you’ll be viable whether you have a 3.8 or 4.0 (I had a 3.8 BTW and was 10th or 12th in a class of 210 – four went to Ivies from my graduating year)</p>

<ol>
<li>Do involve with Model UN, fine arts (Drama or theater) as soon as possible.</li>
<li>Take up a sport, you will have more chances as a varsity team player and Valedictorian than otherwise.</li>
<li>Join Debate, you cannot make it to Harvard undergrad aspiring to be a Lawyer without excelling at Debate.</li>
<li>You will have to be either editor of school newspaper or the president of the student body to bolster your chances.</li>
</ol>

<p>2-5: fine if you really like them or if they’re even available in your school. Not fine if you just want to puff your resume – it’s pretty obvious when it happens. My EC list wasn’t that fat. I was good at a few things and was a leader in an inner-city HS although I’m not an URM.</p>

<ol>
<li>Does AP Human Geography count as History at your school otherwise you need 4 year or more of History for Harvard?</li>
</ol>

<p>Baloney 100%. They state what courses are considered core classes for viable candidates. My top HS only had TWO years of History. Plus, they know that most students will bounce around in choice of majors so don’t admit students based on declared majors. They want solid kids with a broad background, not someone who is about to go to Law School the day they leave undergrad. The line about having not excelled in Debate is without merit completely. Same reasoning as just stated.</p>

<p>When I honestly reflect at the strengths of my file it would be this:

  1. Academically sound. Top grades (a few Bs) in the toughest curriculum in my very high-performing HS. My scores were only OK. They ended up being around the 25th quartile of admitted students. Oh well.
  2. Solid schoolwide leadership in a majority African American setting (I’m Chinese, BTW)
  3. Convincing and revealing essays – well at least ONE was that. LOL. The other was rather plain, if I’m really honest. But my “stronger” essay was just my thoughts about betraying a friendship (revealed my best friend’s homosexuality) and my efforts at restoring that friendship. Simple subject, heart felt, honest. Not bad for a 17 year old with no coaching.</p>
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<p>I think you’re getting it wrong. It is not that you have to have all these to get into HYPS but that if you have these then your chances at these are the greatest. That is what my understanding is about OP request i.e. how to maximize the chances.</p>

<p>If you look at Princeton statistics for last year. You chances increases more than twice to 26% if your SAT1 score > 2300. The actual acceptance rate is 9.75%. So the admission is logical. What does that mean?
You have 26% chances that you will get into Princeton if your SAT1 > 2300 but only 9.75% otherwise. So what you can do get a SAT1 > 2300.</p>

<p>If your school rank then you better be Valedictorian as the chances increases if you are one than not.</p>

<p>So it is simple logic, if you get it you may get in otherwise you can leave it to luck thinking it is a crap shot anyway.
But for those who believe in making their destiny, you can make it by doing all the above. You may still not get in but it would be an exception than a rule.</p>

<p>Brown has full blown statistics on their admission page and you can see that
if SAT1 CR is 800 chances are 29%
if SAT1 M is 800 chances are 29%
if SAT1 W is 800 chances are 29%
if Valedictorian/Salu. chances are 29%
So if you use the rule of combinations then an applicant with all these 4 things itself will have a chances > 60% at Brown University.</p>

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<p>You’re completely incorrect that you have to go to a top prep school or be of the top 5 students in a public hs. Again, you keep forgetting that THIS IS NOT INDIA. And your “rule of combinations” makes no sense whatsoever. Ivies turn down perfect SAT scorers and valedictorians all the time.</p>

<p>I won’t even get into how obnoxious the whole Ivy-chasing thing is, since there are plenty of excellent colleges in this country.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl, POIH made the following statement: So if you use the rule of combinations then an applicant with all these 4 things itself will have a chances > 60% at Brown University.</p>

<p>What follows from there is that there is about 40% chance you will be turned down by Brown even w/ a perfect score.</p>

<p>That means what POIH is saying is not contradicting w/ your statement (that perfect scores don’t guarantee you admission). </p>

<p>It has nothing to do w/ India or US. What is lacking is simple logical thinking on your part.</p>

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<p>The Stanford admission officer responsible for my region of the country has repeatedly said, “It’s not a numbers-driven process” when describing admission to Stanford, and I think that comment is generalizable to other peer colleges.</p>

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<p>The rule of combinations is surely incorrectly applied in the post above by ParentOfIvyHope, because the required hypotheses for applying that rule are not present.</p>

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<p>Doesn’t mean it won’t ever happen. Is your dd’s school That Special to HYPS? I’m sure it’s a good private school and the valedictorians are smart, but there are 35,000 valedictorians every year in the US.</p>

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<p>Exactly, no set of formulas are necessary for admission into top schools.</p>

<p>

This is probably ALSO due to other significant factors as well like EC’s, essays, and such that the Valedictorian is a top-notch candidate. Just a > 2300 alone is meaningless.</p>

<p>With that said, I think that Parentofivyhope is saying that doing those certain things will be most likely to help your chances than not doing it, although things like debate are subjective for a pre-med applicant and such.</p>

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<p>This year, my school had 1 student go to Columbia, 1 to Dartmouth, 2 to Brown, 1 to Harvard, and 1 to MIT. Only one of them(MIT) was in the top 5, and this is at a slightly above average public high school. </p>

<p>My advice is just to have fun and do what interests you, life’s too short to spend four years doing things you don’t like.</p>

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<p>tokenadult 33>The Stanford admission officer responsible for my region of the country has repeatedly said, “It’s not a numbers-driven process” when describing admission to Stanford</p>

<p>Correct way to describe it is: It’s not just a numbers-driven process. </p>

<p>Absent some major hook, It is always numbers-driven PLUS something more. The reason colleges don’t advertise numbers is to attract as many candidates to apply as possible and improve their selectivity stats. If it is just numbers driven, those not having the numbers won’t bother applying. Conspiracy theory: Just to keep selectivity up and keep people guessing, top colleges violate number rules. They throw bones for lower stats (albeit fully qualified) people. For every person selected thus, there are 100’s of suckers who apply thinking they will win the lottery. Again colleges win: their selectivity improves.</p>

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<p>“The reason colleges don’t advertise numbers is to attract as many candidates to apply as possible and improve their selectivity stats.”</p>

<p>I don’t subscribe to this theory. The adcoms of top schools (and their alumni who demand this) want GREAT students. They want the “diamonds in the rough” who might never apply to an HYPS due to self-selection and fear that they don’t have top SATs. Almost all the ultra selectives spend HUGE amounts of money, time and manpower to recruit at traditionally VERY unlikely sources of viable applicants (as well as maintaining their ties with traditional feeders, of course).</p>

<p>The adcoms I’ve met are genuinely deeply moved by getting great students from throughout the country and the world. The cynic would say the tail is wagging the dog (i.e. numbers and appearance of selectivity drive their recruiting efforts). I don’t see that, personally.</p>

<p>Think of Dr. Benjamin Carson (Yale '73) recent Pres Medal of Freedom winner and amazing story of success through adversity. The alum who interviewed him as a HS senior is actually a good friend of mine.</p>

<p>While this may sound elitist, take it for what it is: as graduates of an HYP, we find the jostling of top USNWR status to be embarrassing and how much weight outsiders place in it. We are confident of our education and experience, confident of our alma mater’s continuing excellence, and appreciative of sister schools’ efforts to offer the same opportunities we enjoyed. To the HYP, they really don’t mind what the admit rate is: they’ve enjoyed decades of getting in great students (when I was admitted, my college had a 16% admit rate). The fact that apps have ballooned over the last decade wasn’t their doing. If it drops in the future, not too many of us will bemoan our “drop in prestige”. We’re confident of our alma maters’ place in US and world affairs and the value it imparted to our lives much more than how society views us.</p>

<p>Among my fellow alums, there’s an unspoken “we don’t talk about that” regarding “prestige” and “ranking”. I think this derives from our sense of gratefulness at receiving fantastic opportunity at attending our schools.</p>

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<p>Great post, T26E4. It’s all the insecure wannabes that are so concerned about getting into Ivy Leagues (without even recognizing the diversity that encompasses Ivy experiences – what do Brown and Columbia have in common anyway?). And it’s all the insecure wannabes who defend “their schools” in the great contests of My Top 20 School is So Much More Prestigious Than Your Top 20 School Because Our SAT Scores are 10 Points Higher So THERE. I agree that HYP et al don’t really care what the admit rate is; admit rates only impress people who are easily impressed.</p>