Question about race and admissions

<p>Newjack88,</p>

<p>You don't have to discuss it. I can accept your silence as an implicit acknowledgment that your "interests indicate ethnicity" argument is weak.</p>

<p>I omitted an important word in my comment regarding Justice Breyer; that is my mistake. As the Chief Justice wrote in Parents Involved, "Justice Breyer’s dissent also asserts that these cases are controlled by Grutter, claiming that the existence of a compelling interest in these cases “follows a fortiori” from Grutter, post, at 41, 64–66, and accusing us of tacitly overruling that case."</p>

<p>The Chief Justice believed that the situation in Parents Involved and Grutter were related but nonetheless different. If Grutter truly "had nothing to do with the case [Parents Involved]," as you assert, then it would not have been necessary to refer to Grutter at all. In fact, the Chief Justice referred to Grutter many times in the Court's opinion. Moreover, in his dissent, Justice Breyer argued that far from having "nothing to do with the case," Grutter was essential to the understanding of Parents Involved.</p>

<p>If the Justices felt that was necessary to refer back to Grutter, then it indeed had something to do with the case.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You don't have to discuss it. I can accept your silence as an implicit acknowledgment that your "interests indicate ethnicity" argument is weak.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Names can be changed. In fact, our country has a long history of immigrants willingly changing their names to avoid discrimination. For example, Martin Sheen was born as Ram</p>

<p>The three of you are allowing the alleged discrimination against asians in admissions get entangled with AA. </p>

<p>The two are not related.</p>

<p>Newjack88,</p>

<p>
[quote]

Go ahead and take it that way. I just don't see the point of further discussing it. What benefit do you see from us discussing this minute point? Anyways, I will take your tendencies to argue over irrelevant points while completely ignoring the relevant ones as you not having any good reason to being so opposed to having racially and gender balanced student bodies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please keep in mind that I have answered your question, "what is your argument for not considering race?" by noting that race is a factor irrelevant to participation in university life.</p>

<p>When you weren't convinced and asked me how extracurriculars and essays are more relevant than race, I gave you examples and reasons why both are far more relevant to participation in university life than race is in post #71.</p>

<p>When you still weren't convinced and asked me, "wouldn't race be relevant if the school had a <insert ethnicity=""> club or a multicultitural club?" I said no and pointed out in post #74 that your question rests on the assumption that being part of an ethnicity means being intimately familiar with that ethnicity. I gave you an example based on my experience with American Chinese, many of whom do not speak Chinese and are not familiar with Chinese history, customs, and culture.</insert></p>

<p>Also, remember that racial balancing is not a compelling state interest and is in fact patently un-Constitutional.</p>

<p>
[quote]

As for the argument about changing names, colleges already ask you to give previous last names. Right now it's optional but, if it were found that many kids were changing their names to get an "edge" in the college admissions game, i'm pretty sure that field would become required.

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</p>

<p>I'm not sure if you've applied to any colleges yet, but when I applied last year, none of the four on my list required that I list previous last names. To see if anything had changed, I downloaded this year's application for admission at my current university and found no "previous names" box. The Ivy Leagues used to ask this question decades ago to discriminate against Jews. That you have not unequivocally denounced this seem to be OK with its being a required question surprises me.</p>

<p>You say that Grutter had nothing to do with the way in which Parents Involved was decided. Then, why was it referenced so many times by the Justices? If case X is frequently referred to in an opinion, then case X must have had something to do with the way in which case Y was decided. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been cited.</p>

<p>
[quote]

The three of you are allowing the alleged discrimination against asians in admissions get entangled with AA. </p>

<p>The two are not related.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Following the removal of racial preferences in the UC system, the percentage of Asians increased. As far as I know, the other parts of the application stayed the same (i.e. holding all else constant.)</p>

<p>Is there a causal relationship? Can't say for certain. Is there a relationship? Yes.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, remember that racial balancing is not a compelling state interest and is in fact patently un-Constitutional.

[/quote]

I meant to say, "Anyways, I will take your tendencies to argue over irrelevant points while completely ignoring the relevant ones as you not having any good reason to being so opposed to having racially diverse and gender balanced student bodies."</p>

<p>
[quote]
Please keep in mind that I have answered your question, "what is your argument for not considering race?" by noting that race is a factor irrelevant to participation in university life.

[/quote]

That has nothing to do with whether or not seeking diversity should be considered a social good, which is essentially my argument. I believe that you have yet to contend, or at least acknowledge, this argument. You also have not addressed the fact that considering race and gender is the only practical way for colleges to create racially diverse and gender balanced student bodies.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When you weren't convinced and asked me how extracurriculars and essays are more relevant than race, I gave you examples and reasons why both are far more relevant to participation in university life than race is in post #71.

[/quote]

This proves what I was saying above. I think you may have gotten lost some where in the exchange. My argument about the ECs, essays, etc. being irrelevant was against someone else's, or maybe your, assertion that race is the only irrelevant factor that colleges currently consider.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When you still weren't convinced and asked me, "wouldn't race be relevant if the school had a <insert ethnicity=""> club or a multicultitural club?" I said no and pointed out in post #74 that your question rests on the assumption that being part of an ethnicity means being intimately familiar with that ethnicity. I gave you an example based on my experience with American Chinese, many of whom do not speak Chinese and are not familiar with Chinese history, customs, and culture.

[/quote]

Pointless. You have been arguing merely using anecdotal evidence to support your claims. My experiences have been very different from yours. All of the Asians I have met know a considerable amount more about being Asian than I do. It's really not surprising, though, since they are Asian and I am not. Also, your are kind of suggesting that you do not consider a Chinese American Chinese simply because he or she may not be familiar with Chinese history, customs, etc. Is an African American not African American because he or she doesn't know all the words to a particular rap song?</insert></p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure if you've applied to any colleges yet, but when I applied last year, none of the four on my list required that I list previous last names. To see if anything had changed, I downloaded this year's application for admission at my current university and found no "previous names" box. The Ivy Leagues used to ask this question decades ago to discriminate against Jews. That you have not unequivocally denounced this seem to be OK with its being a required question surprises me.

[/quote]

Look at the Common App big guy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You say that Grutter had nothing to do with the way in which Parents Involved was decided. Then, why was it referenced so many times by the Justices? If case X is frequently referred to in an opinion, then case X must have had something to do with the way in which case Y was decided. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been cited.

[/quote]

Or perhaps to emphasize that it had nothing to do with the case. Dude, you are wrong here. The records say that Grutter did not "govern" the Parents Involved case.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Following the removal of racial preferences in the UC system, the percentage of Asians increased. As far as I know, the other parts of the application stayed the same (i.e. holding all else constant.)</p>

<p>Is there a causal relationship? Can't say for certain. Is there a relationship? Yes.

[/quote]

A lot of it has to do with fewer Whites applying too.</p>

<p>Newjack88,</p>

<p>My answering one of your questions may very well not have anything to do with whether or not seeking diversity should be considered a social good. After all, the question you asked at the time was not "Is seeking diversity a social good?" It was, "What is your argument for not considering race?" I cannot give you an answer to a question that you have not asked me.</p>

<p>If you'd like to know whether I think seeking diversity is a good thing, my answer is yes, it is a good thing. I just disagree that race and diversity are intertwined.</p>

<p>
[quote]

You also have not addressed the fact that considering race and gender is the only practical way for colleges to create racially diverse and gender balanced student bodies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is it a fact? Why, then, is the UC system diverse even though state law prohibits the system from giving preferential treatment based on race?</p>

<p>
[quote]

My experiences have been very different from yours. All of the Asians I have met know a considerable amount more about being Asian than I do. It's really not surprising, though, since they are Asian and I am not. Also, your are kind of suggesting that you do not consider a Chinese American Chinese simply because he or she may not be familiar with Chinese history, customs, etc. Is an African American not African American because he or she doesn't know all the words to a particular rap song?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Knowing what it is like to be Asian and knowing an Asian country's language, history, and customs are two separate things. Let's suppose that I know nothing about China. I would still know what it is like to be Asian. So, can I can join a Chinese Student Association and actively advance its goal of educating others about Chinese culture? I can join the association, yes, but I can't educate others because I know nothing about Chinese culture. You claimed that it is OK to assume that "being part of an ethnicity means being intimately familiar with that ethnicity." I'm saying that it's a poor assumption, that being part of an ethnicity does not guarantee knowing about that ethnicity.</p>

<p>I am not suggesting that an American Chinese who is not familiar with Chinese history, customs, and so forth is not Chinese. I don't even know how you could have read that from my words. I've been trying to convince you that just because somebody is American Chinese does not mean he is intimately familiar with the Chinese ethnicity.</p>

<p>If Grutter had nothing to do with Parents Involved, then it wouldn't have been cited. Did any of the Justices cite Casey in their opinions? No. And, why didn't they cite Casey? Maybe it's because a case involving abortion rights truly has nothing to do with a case involving racial preferences. On the other hand, a case that deals with racial preferences is likely to be relevant to a case that deals with the use of race in education. And, that is why Grutter was referred to so many times by the Justices.</p>

<p>Do you have any proof that fewer whites are applying to the UCs today?</p>