Question about US Ivy League Schools compared to International/Abroad Schools

Graduate School
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<p>Geez. Guys, as I said before, I’m not here to tell you that LSE is the greatest school in the world, or the greatest school in Europe, or even the greatest school in the UK. There are lots of things about this place which I think need improvement, and there are lots of reasons I would recommend that certain people with certain types of goals study elsewhere. My comments are just to dispel some misconceptions about the school.</p>

<p>Why has this turned into a discussion about international relations departments? I thought the OP was asking about studying public policy and possibly working abroad. I don’t know jack about American IR departments. I don’t even know anything about the LSE IR department. I’m only talking about general prospects coming from each of the universities I’ve mentioned. </p>

<p>To address Intaglio5’s last comment: </p>

<p>“When I say degree factory, I don’t mean “an institution which grants degrees.” LSE’s brand is a reflection of its undergraduate curriculum and its Pubilc Policy master’s courses – not the huge swath of topics it covers at the master’s level for which the acceptance rates are 40%+ (and for which funding is non-existent).”</p>

<p>False. LSE’s brand has little to do with its public policy masters courses or the level of undergraduate education. It has to do with the quality and sheer volume of research it produces in economics and the various subdisciplines of economics, including public economics. Funding is done through the ESRC in the UK, not through the university itself. It’s a different system from what Canadians and Americans are used to, and it does affect who is eligible for funding. That said, I think the system could be vastly improved. As for the high acceptance rates, all I can say is that 40% of applicants are definitely not accepted to the economics-based programs at LSE.</p>

<p>decidedfactor:</p>

<p>Perhaps the reason we are having this disconnect is because I am talking about universities in general, which I argue are usually more influential in future job prospects than specific departments are, and you are talking about specific IR departments. I am not here to defend the LSE IR department. Some people think it’s great, others don’t. I honestly don’t know or care. I don’t recall the OP asking about IR departments, but if so then I’ll stop talking :slight_smile: . </p>

<p>A year at Sciences-Po with other ______ majors? (what did you say you studied again?) Fair enough, everyone’s entitled to their opinions. I’m familiar with Sciences-Po, their students are always at LSE campus doing their exchange stuff. I personally think the University of Amsterdam is better than LSE. Smaller classes, more interesting people, nicer facilities, nicer city, better profs and a top-10 european econ department. But I still decided to leave for LSE because people in HR departments don’t agree with me.</p>

<p>Oh and I find your definition (if it can be called that) of pre-professional strange and unusual, so I’m just going to leave that point alone. You basically said: </p>

<p>core curriculum of introductory economics = pre-professional program</p>

<p>which I do not agree with. But you seem to be working from a different definition of pre-professional and I don’t feel like arguing semantics.</p>

<p>OP: Did you want to hear about IR departments or did you want to hear about prospects overseas after graduating from certain universities?</p>

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<p>Nauru: You took particular exception with what I said. You should know 1) I’ve had several friends go to different programs at the LSE. One such program has been a kind of 1-year generalized IR master’s. From this program, one has very little chance of getting into investment banking in the US. Now, I did hedge and say it may be possible to do so in London and maybe it is, though when you say there are folks from i-bankers recruiting all over LSE will they recruit these types? I’ve also had friends who went there undergrad, and frankly, they were uniformly impressive and obviously well-educated. And I know by reputation that the Economics program at LSE at the PhD level has superstars. So that’s the basis of my impressions, largely. The other basis is knowing how the US market views a Master’s from the LSE. It tends to be “hmm, LSE; I’ve heard that’s a prestigious school, but I know nothing about it or the Master’s program really and therefore it means nothing to me other than it’s at least somewhat respectable.” So the default is to look at what one studied and where one went to undergrad to determine how seriously it might be taken. 2) I concluded based on his mentioning Johns Hopkins, SAIS, Georgetown, and SIPA that he was looking at IR Master’s programs in terms of focus within Public Policy and Economics. If it is basically impossible for an American to get into investment banking with a 1-year generalist IR degree from LSE, it is still quite difficult for one to get into i-banking from any of these. But it does get done, particularly in good recruiting years and when one has the right undergrad.</p>

<p>The OP did not disclose that he/she was a European at first, so I looked at things through the prism of an American wanting to get an IR degree.</p>

<p>I stand by all the other things I said and for an American these are all basically truths. The schools mentioned like Johns Hopkins and Tufts are, in the IR space, more prestigious than LSE – when one is comparing the Master’s we are talking about. And frankly it does seem the glory of the LSE is from the reflected glory of the undergrads and the economics faculty. I had a friend get a general social science PhD there and she had a great experience, but her undergrad was good, not great at a decent, not great, undergrad institution.</p>

<p>It doesn’t really pay to make these analyses without considering the particular departments and programs. LSE has pockets of tremendous excellence, I gather.</p>

<p>I don’t buy the analysis of “pre-professional” so much because if one is talking IR all those degrees are essentially academic even if they bill themselves as professional.</p>

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<p>I was mostly focusing on my prospects after LSE, and whether the prestige can be compared to first tier schools in the US, schools like Columbia/Georgetown/even Harvard. I’m a European who grew up in the states, so I hold both Polish and American citizenships, which opens up employment opportunities for me in the EU (while holding on to those in the US). My situation is this: I have an offer from LSE for a Masters in Public Administration in Public and Economic Policy (MPA) as well as my probable other choice-an MA degree in IR from JHU. Not to focus on IR or anything, because the program in both schools are quite different, I wanted to compare the prestige of both schools to the respective programs they are offering me as well as employment prospects in the future. My plan is to graduate from LSE and hopefully work in the EU commission after passing the concur (French exam for the Commission). If that path doesn’t work out, working with in the corruption division in the world bank would be my second option (I assume they want a focus on political economy in this case, because of the nature of the studies-with a focus on institutional economics etc which I currently have as an undergraduate).</p>

<p>So I hear that LSE has the networking for the Commission as well as the World Bank (which was a surprise to me actually), while JHU has the better reputation-as an American university with a wonderful IR staff comprised of the best brain-drain money can buy. Now, putting the Commission/WB aside, 1. which program is more prestigious in general, and 2. which program can help me reach my goals. I speak Polish, English, and French by the way, and if needed i’m willing to do the Phd (if the world bank option is what I chose) or an intermediary degree hopefully from a school like Harvard.</p>

<p>How far behind Harvard is LSE by the way? I noticed some of their profs have taught at Harvard.</p>

<p>These comments are extremely helpful by the way, thank you in advance guys/girls.</p>

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<p>But you are asking the wrong people. You should be asking a population of Europeans, at least with respect to LSE. </p>

<p>Nauru thinks that LSE is definitely more prestigious than Hopkins, Tufts, etc. because he doesn’t either respect their position in IR or doesn’t know them. In IR in the States, they are more prestigious than LSE hands-down and he/she doesn’t seem to appreciate that but goes with the general recommendation about going to Harvard and Princeton. A few here on the other hand don’t really know about how excellent LSE can be in many areas because we were just focusing on IR.</p>

<p>In other words, we are commenting on “marketplaces” we really only have vague impressions about. It is quite likely I am not according LSE the respect it deserves. Most Americans just know Oxford and Cambridge in England, but I’ll wager for many kinds of jobs (apparently for i-banking), it could be better to go to LSE, I don’t know.</p>

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<p>Why do you care about relative prestige among schools that apparently you haven’t applied to or have no shot at (based on your post)? Do you want some sort of badge of honor to walk around with for life? I think what you should focus on is whether a degree has enough of the right kind of prestige to get you to where you need to go.</p>

<p>I went to Johns Hopkins SAIS, and I can tell you a few things: 1) its main offering is a generalist Master’s degree by and large (though there is a range of what you can focus on and one can make it more technical) and therefore is not a particularly good training ground for the World Bank (esp. for an American) which prefers to hire PhDs, IMO. Yes, I do have some friends who have gotten positions there, but the WB is like a university in its respect for PhDs generally, though see point 2. 2) The World Bank has a quota system for hires. What a Pole needs vs. a US citizen is vastly different, in terms of credentials, most likely. A PhD would always help, but is not necessary most likely. 3) Johns Hopkins’ SAIS has a sterling reputation in pockets of the EU apparently, owing perhaps in large part to the numbers of Europeans who have graduated from its program in Bologna, Italy. I always hear things like half the foreign service of this or that country in Europe has graduates from there. I remember the Chancellor/President of Austria came and spoke and he was a grad. These also are vague impressions. But maybe SAIS has a great reputation in Europe. Investigate this.</p>

<p>Something tells me LSE would have a great network in the EU. If this is the case, I would go there and/or determine whether the Hopkins EU network is as strong. Talk to the schools, get the names of alumni of both and see what they say. Put out some queries to the World Bank’s corruption division. Find out if you’d be dog meat there without a PhD or law degree.</p>

<p>In the States, the best PhD programs focusing on development/economics (that I believe have strong institutional economics foci): MIT, Berkeley, Harvard in no particular order. Maybe you should set yourself up to go to one of these. Or see if LSE affords the possibility of moving into a PhD track easily.</p>

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<p>No but with employment being dependent on my employers ability to extrapolate my credentials, i’d think that the reputation of a school can give you a leg up…or a leg down, so knowing what Americans think of the world abroad is still eye-opening…as well as Europeans.</p>

<p>Like I said before, I chose LSE over Oxbridge; and I thought that Columbia/John Hopkins would be more US centered on its employment prospects as well its networking. If I didn’t have a shot in Columbia/JHU, I wouldn’t be posting this. Its not about a badge of honor, its about having only 24 hours in a day and trying to be informed about an American school system while trying to use every minute of your time wisely in a country thats being privatized by the second. That means that any info counts. I’v shot a couple emails, got some reply’s, made some calls. Masters programs at LSE can be used as stepping stones into a Phd in many cases. I think the reputation problem occurs from a mix of nostalgia and ignorance. Everyone wants their guys to be the best to some degree, while not having the time to explore other international options away from their respective domestic countries. That is the problem though that we are facing isn’t it? We only have one try to really plan most of this out, under a time constraint. If I had 5 years to do this from today, with not much else going on, I really wouldn’t be posting but making phone calls and shooting emails-until I answered every last question. Of course, I have no such luxury, and my opportunity cost is sadly too high at the moment.</p>

<p>Thanks for the suggestions though. I’ve looked into a lot of what you have suggested, i’ll continue to do so.</p>

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<p>Just thought would throw my two cents in about LSE. In the UK at graduate level LSE is as highly regarded as Oxbridge, I think many courses at LSE are much more competitive than similar courses at Cambridge. General opinion in Britain about international reputation tends to go Oxbridge and Harvard/Yale at the top. Then the rest of the ivies (although huge misunderstanding about what an ivy league university is) along with the rest of the ‘golden triangle’ - UCL, Imperial and LSE</p>

<p>LSE masters courses are certainly not seen as a degree factory in the UK. In Britain in order to obtain a PhD in the humanities and social sciences one has to complete a masters degree first. The system is nowhere near as integrated as the USA so it is far from uncommon for people to have degrees from three different universities. My understanding of the United States is that in most of the top programs people apply for the PhD and get a masters along the way. The masters qualifications at LSE are consistently rated very highly bygovernment reviews. It may be that the masters that don’t lead on to a PhD of course are different but those that are traditionally seen as ways into a PhD are amongst the best in the country.</p>

<p>In terms of funding British students tend to have to find their own at graduate level. There is limited research funding available from the government. Admittedly this funding doesn’t always pay the full tuition and LSE but its pretty close and I don’t think there is a huge amount of ‘cross-funding’ as there is at undergraduate level.</p>