<p>Dog,</p>
<p>That is part of the tradeoff for being a <em>state university</em>. My guess is the bar is very high for out-of-state candidates.</p>
<p>In my state (Virginia), three of the top public universities have joined together to push a "chartered university" status; less state funding for more independence.</p>
<p>Here is a link to UVA about this: <a href="http://www.virginia.edu/chartereduniversities/%5B/url%5D">http://www.virginia.edu/chartereduniversities/</a></p>
<p>Alexandre, how are you defining "class?" Your numbers add up to something much larger than the freshman class in any given year. Do you mean admitted students?</p>
<p>Also, I'm not sure it's true that most residents take the ACT instead of the SAT. I believe it would be more accurate to say that most of them take both. I don't have the figures in front of me, I could check this tomorrow.</p>
<p>Dog, each university has a weakness. </p>
<p>Some schools, it is their academic reputation. Michigan's academic reputation is #9 in the US, tied with Cornell, Duke, Chicago, Johns Hopkins and Penn. </p>
<p>Other schools, it is their ties with industry and their reputation in the corporate world. Michigan attracts 1,500 companies to its campus each year, more than Cornell, Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth combined and those 4 Ivy League schools combined have 28,000 undergrads. Also, the mean starting salary for Michigan undergrads is equal to the mean starting salary of students from any top 10-15 university, with the exceptuion of MIT and maybe Stanford.</p>
<p>Other schools, it is their endowment or spending per student. Michigan's endowment is currently at $4.5 billion, 9th largest among universities and quickly outpacing all other universities. In 1990, Michigan's endowment was merely $500 million, good for 22nd place. Since then, Michigan has increased its endowment by 900%. Most schools have increased their endowments by 300%-600%. At this rate, Michigan will have one of the 5 biggest endowments in the nation by 2010. And spneding/student is also very high, so Michigan students are indeed getting the best of all worlds.</p>
<p>In terms of selectivity, Michigan should indeed try to make it tougher to get in. But that will not improve the university's academic reputation in the eyes of the academic or professional worlds. They simply aren't fixated on such an artificial.</p>
<p>So Dog, there is not doubt that Michigan ois more than merely a top state university. It is a top university...period. But like I said before, Michigan is probably not a good match for you. You should... and are probably looking elsewhere. Good luck to you.</p>
<p>Hoedown, I did not mean class...I meant undergraduate student body. </p>
<p>I agree that many Michigan students took both their ACT and their SAT. I think two thirds report their SAT though. I am not sure, but I remember seeing that number. Let me know if your numbers match mine.Thanks.</p>
<p>anyway...it doesnt matter if the top 10% of michigan are more than RIce or DUke...because there are the rest of the student (90%)..which would be 0ver 15000 students who have lower stats...percentages give a more accurate value than numbers.</p>
<p>Yes and no Jimminy. The top 17,000 students are Michigan are comparable to Rice's student body as a whole. It is the bottom 7,000 students that would probably not make it into a school like Rice. The point is, Michigan's student body is a dream come true for recruiters. In your case, you chose Rice because you wanted a smaller school, and that's perfectly understandable. Many students prefer a more intimate atmosphere. And in terms of education, Rice is certainly as good as Michigan, so you cannot go wrong there either. Finally, the weather in Houston will probably be more suitable for you. All around, I think Rice is a better fit for you. Rice truly is an awesome school.</p>
<p>i dunno...michigan is also an awesome school.lets see...havent made a final decision yet.</p>
<p>Take your time Jimminy...you have until late April to decide. But let me tell you, both schools are awesome. My friends who went to Rice LOVED it. I visited their campus once. It reminded me of Stanford as far as the energy and the attitude of the students go. In fact, many students at Rice are students who were accepted into Stanford but picked Rice for one reason or another. Personally, I prefer Ann Arbor to Houston, Michigan has a larger international contigent (5% of undergrads and 20% of graduate students) and Michigan has more variety than Rice, but academically, you cannot beat Rice....or Michigan for that matter. Either way, you win. Keep us posted.</p>
<p>Alexandre, I have a quick question. Where do you find out the starting salary for students from various universities?Also, I would like to clarify something. I was accepted to U Mich Honors and I am proud of it and am still weighing my other options in addition to Mich as I consider it an option. I think that U of Mich is am awesome school but it just really bothers me that some of my peers that are just NOT top 20 college material in any shape or form get in there and will be attending.</p>
<p>Dog, some universities post their stats. Michigan, Cornell and Penn all do. MIT does as well. You just have to go around and do some research.</p>
<p>Dog, I commend you for wanting a challenging environment and a group of peers who are stimulating. You've obviously got a lot of drive.</p>
<p>However, your assumptions about some of the students at michigan, and their presumably deleterious affect on your education, seems kind of bold. How do you know they're not top-20 material "in any shape or form?" All you know is that their test scores and grades are lower than yours. You don't know much else about them, or what they are contributing to campus intellectual life. Maybe they are bringing a little less sheer genius than the students in the Honor program, but I'm not sure that means they are going to dumb down the place for you.</p>
<p>hoedown, I never said that these kids would have a "deleterious" or harmful effect on my education or anything of that nature. However, all I was saying is that some of the kids that get into Michigan and I am not saying ALL but defintely some are weak compared to a normal top 20 college material student. For example, I know a student that took no Aps or Honors up until senior year and had an 88 average, no ECs (actually lied about being apart of so many and having leadership positions), and got an 1300 on SATs and I can tell you his verbal was below a 600. This student in addition got deferred from our state university in New York. This is clear evidence that Michigan sometimes takes weak kids and I don't know why, maybe its the money they are after or w.e. I think Michigan is a great school but these type of students definetely do not add to the Michigan vibrant community.</p>
<p>Dog, you are going to find such "weak" students everywhere...from Harvard and Princeton to the most comon universities. The difference is that at Harvard and Princeton, they make up less than 10% of the student population whereas at Michigan, they make up 20%-30% of the student population. At most top 20 universities, they make up 10%-20% of the student body...but no other top 20 university has 25,000 undergrads. </p>
<p>By the way, you speak of a 3.5 student with a 1300 on his SAT as being weak. Sorry to tell you, but that is not weak. He isn;t a top student, but 3.5 students with 1300 on their SATs get into top universities all the time.</p>
<p>But what do you care? The university is regarded as a top 15 university. If you do well at Michigan, you can accomplish anything.</p>
<p>I remember reading something by one of the journals that had a ranking list for the schools that had the highest acceptance to the top 15 graduate programs (med, law, and business). Would you by any chance know where that ranking is on the internet?</p>
<p>It was a Wall Street Journall report. I do not remember the link, but I remember Michigan was: </p>
<h1>1 among State schools (UVA was #2 and Cal-Berkeley was #3)</h1>
<h1>3 among Midwestern universities (Chicago was #1 and Northwestern was #2)</h1>
<h1>18 among research universities (12 of the top 30 were LACs)</h1>
<h1>30 overall</h1>
<p>There was virtually no difference between #20 and #40. Also, the report favored East Coast universities because of the 15 graduate programs used, 11 were in the East Coast.</p>
<p>ALEXANDRE:
Dog, I would not rank those schools, but I would group them:</p>
<p>GROUP I:
Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford, Yale</p>
<p>GROUP II:
Brown, Cal-Berkeley, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Michigan, Northwestern, Penn</p>
<p>Group III:
Rice, Washington U.</p>
<p>i REALIZE THESE ARE THE SCHOOLS HE GAVE U BUT I WAS WONDERING IF U WOULD PUT SCHOOLS LIKE EMORY, gEORGETOWN, VANDERBILT IN GROUP III, A GROUP Iv, OR SOMEWHERE ELSE</p>
<p>I would put Vanderbilt, Georgetown and several others in group III...and the difference between each group is infinitisimal.</p>
<p>Is that a joke Alexandre. How can you put a school like Vanderbilt with a group like Rice and Wash U. Thats rediculous and it is even a little crazy that you group Wash U with Rice and not behind it considering Wash U was not even a top 25 school before the late 1990s and Rice has always been in the top 20 since as long as I can remember. Vanderbilt, I have nothing against it is defintely not on part with Rice and that is a complete fabrication if you think so.</p>
<p>"At any rate, a 26-30 ACT range is similar to a 1200-1420 SAT range."</p>
<p>actually, according to the collegeboard, a 30ACT is equal to a 1320-1350.
<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/sat/cbsenior/html/stat00f.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/sat/cbsenior/html/stat00f.html</a>
so the top 75th percentile would be about 1350. if that were true only 25% would have scored higher than only 1350, i dont think that it would be possible for 30% to have scored over a 1350. but thats assuming the ACT is an acurate sample of the student body, which it probably isnt, because as you said, the ACT is more in-state than out of state students.</p>
<p>but, also, if you look at the 25%-75% of the math and verbal scores from princeton revi ew, and add them you get a 75 percentile of 1400. and to say the 75th percentile is 1400, i think is being lenient considering, i assume, the actual 75th percentile is lower than the sum of the two 75th percentiles. so even if the liberal 1400 is the 75th percentile, your numbers are a little off. also, 58% sent SAT and 67% sent ACT scores for Fall 2004.</p>
<p>but you could just give me a link and ill be fine.
btw, where would you put dartmouth on that list of group 1-3. im sad that you put rice in 3 :(</p>
<p>Kosuke, I would put Dartmouth is group 2. And those are just my opinion. Others would chose to donwgrade some of my 2s and upgrade some of my 3s and they would be just as correct. There are many measures used when rating universities. It really depends on what you look at. Furthmore, schools in groups 1,2,3 and 4 are all awesome. So beloning to my group 3 is not really a bad thing.</p>