<p>Had a discussion with a student the other day who insisted that most of the freshman at IVY league schools either test out or are allowed to skip basic freshman english based on HS transcripts. Is that the case? </p>
<p>Not having any exposure to the IVY's I thought I would ask here. He also insisted that almost all the intro english classes are taught by TA's and not full professors.</p>
<p>I though I would also see if this is true as well.</p>
<p>Help me out IVY parents</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Harvard’s College Writing Program is the oldest in the United States - a fairly grueling course in expository writing has been the one academic experience required of every Harvard student since 1872. Literature courses are required as well in the general education requirements.</p>
<p>The statement is untrue about most of the eight Ivy League colleges. I checked that detail a while ago. There can be placement in different levels of freshman English, but few cases of anyone being exempted entirely. </p>
<p>Harvard’s freshman expository writing courses are taught by published authors, some very famous, and I consider that a feature rather than a bug.</p>
<p>Very few full professors teach first year writing (what’s generally known as freshman comp). It’s a real shame, of course, and tremendously unfair, and it has to do with money. At many Ivies and near-Ivies, teachers of first year writing are generally published authors and the classes are kept to a fairly manageable size and number. This is not true everywhere, however: Columbia, for example, has more adjuncts teaching, and graduate students, and it is quite frequently the case that they are really good at what they’re doing. Not all full professors should be teaching something like first year writing, and the university’s money is better spent doing other stuff.</p>
<p>Harvard’s Expository Writing program is generally regarded as one of the best (and least exploitative of teachers) in the country. Cornell’s Writing program is also excellent; likewise Michigan’s. What you want to look for in a really good first year writing program would take more time and space than this post would allow, but some rules of thumb: do the teachers seem to be full-time? is there is a good mix of teachers who are published novelists, with people publishing non-fiction, and people who mix academic with popular writing? Are there at least three or four people on staff who do new media writing? Look for diversity, full-time employees, a range of ages and preparations, and you’ll often have a good writing program.</p>
<p>Exempting out of first year writing is very difficult in most Ivies or near-Ivies that I know of. Many schools have a higher level writing course to satisfy the first year writing requirement if students have made a certain cut-off level SAT score. It is woefully common to exempt out of first year writing by getting a high AP score or high SAT score, in many large state universities. This is a great question, and I hope this helps! If anyone else has more info out there, I’d be interested to read it!</p>
<p>Even school microscopicaly below that hallowed “Ivies” stature, many many selective colleges (especially liberal arts colleges that pride themselves on how well their graduates write) don’t allow AP credits to exempt freshmen from the basic lit and writing core class.</p>
<p>I know that the Freshman Writing class at Columbia is mandatory, an integral part of the Core Curriculum. S had all the right indicators (5 on AP, very high SAT verbal and writing scores) but still had to take it.</p>
<p>Since Brown has no requirements, there is no mandatory freshman English. So there’s no issue there about “placing out.” If a student is identified as needing more instruction in English, they are referred to an introductory writing class. And there are many classes taken by freshman that have a writing fellow assigned to the class, so they get extra assistance.</p>
<p>"Despite the openness of the Brown Curriculum, every student has several non-negotiable obligations to fulfill prior to graduation.</p>
<p>"Demonstrate competence in writing </p>
<p>“Every piece of written work you submit as an undergraduate will be subject to the evaluation of your instructor. Instructors of every course have the option to submit, along with your grade, a ‘writing not satisfactory’ check. If you accumulate two or more checks during your undergraduate career, you will be contacted by the dean’s office and asked to work out a program to fulfill the requirement. This might entail taking an English course or completing work at the Writing Center.” </p>
<p>[Brown</a> Admission: Requirements & Grading](<a href=“Undergraduate Admission | Brown University”>Undergraduate Admission | Brown University)</p>
<p>^^ As quoted above those seem like “on paper” requirements, designed to be invoked in rare instances where a student’s writing level is very deficient. And designed to make sure students don’t simply blow off writing assignments in other classes. But I may be mistaken, there may in fact be a lot of students at Brown getting those two check marks, triggering that requirement.</p>
<p>How many “writing not satisfactory” papers are submitted by instructors?</p>
<p>Agree with dragonmom about the top level LAC not allowing students to place out of intensive writing courses. My D, also with very high reading/writing SAT scores and AP scores of 5 in English composition was required to take one her first year. Although she said the class was truly intensive with huge papers, and taught by a new professor, it was one of her favorite classes because of the class discussion that preceded the writing.</p>
<p>When I was at Brown, I didn’t know anyone who had to take a writing course. I don’t think it’s common.</p>
<p>At Dartmouth about one-third of the class does not have to take the basic freshmen writing class. Anyone with a 780CR or a combination of CR/WR in the high 700’s. Some, also score related, must take 2 more remedial courses instead of the one freshmen writing class. Whether you had to take the freshmen writing course or not everyone must take a writing intensive freshmen seminar. None of these classes are taught by TAs.</p>
<p>The vast majority of students at Brown satisfy the writing requirement coming in. In fact, I know a fair number of individuals here who aren’t even aware that the requirement exists because apparently they don’t contact you about it unless you fail to meet the requirement during the admissions process. It’s a really low percentage who have to fulfill it. I don’t remember it exactly, but I’ve had it cited at me before by an admissions officer and it’s rather low(in the single digits, and low ones at that) and I imagine mostly consists of “special” admits. I have no idea how many get that check later on in their career here, but I imagine not many.</p>
<p>Cornell’s introductory writing program consists of writing-intensive freshman seminars offered by various departments (not necessarily English, although about half of them are offered by the English department). Students in some schools at Cornell are required to take two (although those with high AP English test scores can place out of one of the two). Students in other schools at Cornell only take one. I don’t think that anybody gets away with not taking any.</p>
<p>Yes, I imagine almost no one gets told to take writing. I can’t see Brown doing that.</p>
<p>But, of course, everyone should take writing. Absolutely. </p>
<p>BTW, for amusement, I remember - and if any of my classmates are looking in, they will also remember - this beginning phrases (at least supposedly) from a paper by one of our peers - a very successful person, btw:</p>
<p>“On The Road is a collection of nouns and verbs, liberally sprinkled with adjectives and adverbs, written by a modern day Hemingway …” </p>
<p>I had a roommate who wrote worse but nothing that quotable.</p>
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<p>I’m sure some alumni had a good laugh reading that. Multiple very famous authors teaching Expos? I mean, I’ve heard of John Updike teaching a creative writing class in the summer school, long ago. But published, famous authors teaching Expos in recent decades? Here’s the faculty list:</p>
<p>[HERS</a> Output](<a href=“http://webdocs.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/courses/ExpositoryWriting.html]HERS”>http://webdocs.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/courses/ExpositoryWriting.html)</p>
<p>The head of the program and his predecessor are published authors… of books on how to teach expository writing. The instructors are (very) temporary adjuncts, have a high turnover, typically are graduate students or recent undergrads who stayed in Cambridge, or poet/writer/journalist aspirants who may or may not make it. Not established, famous or “some very famous” authors. </p>
<p>You might be confusing the required and entirely pedestrian Expository Writing first-year class, taught by generally pedestrian faculty who are better described as “writing instructors” than “published authors”, with the (restricted-enrollment) courses in creative writing.</p>
<p>siserune, you have it right. Expos was one of the more pointless courses I took at Harvard. Since I had done well in AP English I took an “advanced” section taught by a grad student in history. I enjoyed the read (historical history - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and Macauly’s History of England), but I didn’t learn anything about writing, that I hadn’t learned in high school.</p>
<p>I checked my recollection and the famous author I most had in mind taught a creative writing course at Harvard, rather longer ago than was my impression. It’s a standard response from the Harvard admissions office (which I last heard just Thursday evening) that one of the few exceptions to the rule of courses being taught by professors at Harvard is the expos courses, taught by published authors, so the admission officers say. A student from a strong high school program might not learn a lot new about writing in a first-year college course, or might learn mostly that a lot of other students didn’t go to high schools with strong writing programs, depending on which college one is talking about.</p>
<p>^^Not sure what has happened with Harvard’s Expository writing program. It was tops, twenty and even just ten years ago. When Richard Marius (biographer of Thomas More, author of an excellent short book on writing about history, and a co-editor of Thomas More papers) was the director, Harvard’s program was top-notch; the next director also did a fine job; I knew two well-published novelists who worked there, but that was ten years ago. I’m sorry for not having investigated further – I just went on line and looked at what Harvard has been doing with expository writing lately and see that it is, unfortunately, very much going the way of other first year writing programs - some layers of administration, and a legion of exploited adjuncts.</p>
<p>It certainly looks to me like Harvard is in need of re-evaluating what it wants to do with first-year writing. Perhaps Drew Gilpin Faust will take a look at this. In the meantime, I’ll stand by my earlier post - Cornell and Michigan are both exemplary in what they do with first-year writing. Yale also has a good approach - the Freshman Seminars program.</p>