Question on "second tier" schools

<p>While I totally agree picking by prestige is silly ( and a bad fit will not make for a successful high school career-- or, therefore, lead to a great college outcome), there are schools that are more academic than others, and that is one measure to think about when considering fit. For example, the school I referred to above (with the 2 sisters) has about a 35-40% admission rate and 60-61 percentile avg SSATs. That’s going to lead to a bigger range of kids, in terms of academic interest and achievement, than some of the most academic and selective schools. It doesn’t mean there aren’t super smart kids there, or that some don’t go to great colleges, or that the school doesn’t have great teachers – it just means there is a bigger range. Some kids like the range, some kids want a place where most of the kids are very serious about academics. The word “tier,” I suppose, is too vague-- as we know, some people think anything other than Andover or Exeter is “second tier.” But there has to be some way to talk about schools that are very academically focused and selective, and those that are not-- again, NOT to say everyone should be applying only to the Andovers of this world, but to say that’s ONE criterion to consider–positively or negatively.</p>

<p>@Daykidmom, that’s really what I meant with regard to “tiers”; thanks for putting it better than I did.</p>

<p>Excellent point, Daykidmom, and one that needs to be examined carefully by each family. </p>

<p>When I started teaching, a colleague of mine used to refer to ours as a 4th tier school. At the risk of this being picked up by a 13 year-old and quoted as gospel, his tiers fell thusly: 1st tier 85%-99% SSAT average. 2nd tier: 73%-84% SSAT average. 3rd Tier: 61%-72% SSAT. Fourth Tier: 50%-60% SSAT. He was a math teacher, hence the specificity of stats, which I hope I’m quoting correctly. I honestly cannot tell you why he drew the lines–probably to punish or reward certain schools he had attitudes about. Take it with a whole block of salt, but it roughly corresponds to where I’d draw the lines now that I’m familiar with more schools.</p>

<p>The real trick is to figure out what the academic culture is like at each school, and what percentage of like-minded kids need to be at a school for your kid to soar. Some academic achievers thrive even when only 20% of the student body is like-mindedly serious and driven, and for some, anything less than 70% is disappointing and not the right environment. Each kid and each family is going to have an individual response. </p>

<p>I really don’t think Loomis is second tier. That’s a derogatory term for one of the best schools in the nation. </p>

<p>The flaw with the ‘tiers’ is that no one can really tell you what that term is qualified by. Is it Ivy League admits? School atmosphere? Athletics? Sure, a relatively unknown private school in, say, Vermont is not going to be looked upon as to be at the same ‘level’ as Exeter or Andover, but honestly, it’s a blurred line where that’s concerned.</p>

<p>I think it depends on what the default school options might be. Schools can have drastically different distributions of test scores, yet post the same average or median SSAT score. I’m trying to outgrow my geeky side, but a school wide average of 65% could mean that most students cluster around 65%. Or it could mean that there are several clusters of test score averages within the distribution. </p>

<p>You should leave behind the public school frame of reference, which assumes the classroom must be heterogeneous. The classes at good boarding schools are small enough that it’s possible for students to be taking classes primarily with similar students. Your child will not face a class of 30 students, all at different levels. </p>

<p>Students are carefully placed into classes (in our experience.) Unlike public schools, private schools have every incentive to prepare students for good colleges. The 99%ile kid who’s at the top of her “2nd tier” class will have bountiful intellectual resources at her disposal. She will be able to work with faculty on independent projects. She will be in the running for significant leadership opportunities. </p>

<p>If you look carefully at matriculation lists from schools, you will see quite a few students at “2nd tier” schools matriculating to elite colleges. There are more chances for a child to shine.</p>

<p>A child scoring a 60%ile on the SSAT could well be just as serious a student as a child who scores in the 90s. Many private K-8 schools offer curriculum at least a year ahead of public school curriculum. On top of that, some famiies pay for SSAT prep classes. </p>

<p>On the college side of things, there’s talk of “well-rounded” or “well-lopsided” students. A student might be really strong in math and science, or really strong on the humanities side of things. In both cases, they would be fine classmates, serious about their studies–but their overall SSAT score would suffer from not being “well-rounded.”</p>

<p>As a last point, I would urge people not to assume that the schools will “push” a student into higher achievement. I think that’s a common misconception. It’s quite possible for a student to arrive at a school with bright, serious students (yes, even a “2nd tier” school!), size up the other students, and decide that he’ll never win at academics, so why try? </p>

<p>These schools provide fantastic opportunities and resources for students willing to make the leap. They won’t push your children off cliffs, though. A child who has been coasting or underachieving may suddenly improve because there’s no place to hide in a discussion class of 12. (And everyone’s done the reading.) A child who has been coasting may not decide he wants to do better. Most boarding schools are more structured than home. They won’t force a child to be his Best Academic Self against his own nature.</p>

<p>Some children will thrive as a big fish in a small pond. Others will be unhappy no matter where they are. </p>

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<p>This is a great thread, and I heartily thank the original poster. My family has been trying to size up my son’s chances at different schools, and we have largely based our informal ranking system on average SSAT scores and acceptance rates. After that, we are looking at the curricula in the areas of specific interest to our son. After that we are looking at the percentage of boarders, diversity of extra curricular options, and location. Because we live outside the country, we have only one week (maybe 10 days) to visit as many schools as we reasonably can this December. And we will not have an opportunity to do revisits. I ask myself, how are we going to get enough of a feel for each school in that short amount of time to know which is the best fit? In addition, we have to cast our net fairly wide as well, as admittance is a necessity, not a luxury. As such, we will surely be applying to schools we will not have a chance to visit, so I am doing my damnedest to learn everything I can about each of the schools on our list. I value this forum immensely, as it has allowed me to hear varying points of view, and contact individuals with specific questions about different schools. It’s also helped me not to feel as isolated as I did when I started this journey in January.</p>

<p>@MadagascarMom, your plan sounds good. The only thing i would suggest is that if DC has SSAT scores above 85, dont put so much weight on them. In other words, the only time i would recommend looking closely at a school’s average SSAT is when your score might be on the low end. You just want to make sure you arent sabataging chances by applying to a school with too low a score. </p>

<p>@MadagascarMom - You might be well served by a good boarding school consultant.</p>

<p>@MadagascarMom - December can be tough to schedule for visits and in person interviews. Don’t mean to alarm you, but you might want to start calling schools to find out when they open their scheduling. </p>

<p>This is true – December visit dates are limited because of the holiday break… </p>

<p>FYI, when I called Lawrenceville in mid Nov, thinking I could get an appointment in early Jan. I was wrong. My daughter interviewed AFTER the app deadline. I would start requesting your slots in Sept.</p>

<p>Right around Labor Day/Mid-August, is a good time to call. When in doubt, call the school during the week in late spring or early summer, to ask when they start scheduling appointments for the fall. </p>

<p>Remember, though, that schools can do Skype interviews now. So even if they aren’t able to fit in an interview on the day you visit in December, you could see the campus at that time, but interview from home on a different day. If it’s the only time you’ll be able to visit the states, I think you would want to see the schools while they’re in session.</p>

<p>Schedule an early-December visit; the schools are still in session. If I were you, I would actually see if I could cram in a late-November visit, or just go with the early-December one. Make sure normal school is in session and not midterm exams. </p>

<p>Don’t forget that Thanksgiving falls in late November . It will fall on Thursday, November 27th. All schools will be closed on that day. Many schools close for the week of Thanksgiving. </p>

<p>On the bright side, many schools (and colleges!) post their calendars online, making planning visits tedious, but less tedious than calling every single school.</p>

<p>In response to the initial post: Unless the school is an exceptionally good fit in other ways, I would be very reluctant to send a kid who scored in the 90’s on SSAT with little to no preparation, to a school where the average is in the 60’s, and somewhat reluctant to send him to a school where average is in the 70’s.</p>

<p>My son scored in the 90’s from a public middle school and with no test prep. He had the interesting opportunity to attend a class at the school he eventually chose, where avg ssat is in mid 80’s, and to attend the same level of the same course at another school where average ssat is in the 70’s. He felt there was a substantial difference in the depth of students’ understanding and in the expectations of the teacher. He did not feel the latter school would be as challenging as he wanted.</p>

<p>That was only 1 class at each school, and his general preference for the social environment at the school he eventually chose might have biased his judgment of those classes, but I think there was something significant there. And one of the main reasons we considered prep school to begin with, was the fact that he was seriously under challenged at his public elementary and middle school. He is currently a freshman at that school where ssat average is in the 80’s, and not surprisingly, finds it to be challenging yet within his ability to excel. That’s exactly what we had hoped for, and I don’t think we would have gotten that from the other school.</p>

<p>@tomtomclub, @cameo43, and @ SevenDad: I am totally on it, regarding interview scheduling. I’ve already been in touch with the schools on our list. Three have allowed me to schedule interview dates already; the others have told me the earliest date to contact them. My digital calendar is full of alerts, so that I can be certain I will be getting first dibs on dates!</p>

<p>@periwinkle, @pdl100: All good advice. I don’t see how we can avoid skype interviews, as there is simply not enough time for us to visit all the schools. Our hope is to be able to interview at our current top choices, and then visit as many of the others as possible. We will be starting on December 12 and going through the next week. It is not ideal, but it is all we have available, given our situation. I am trying to cultivate “relationships” with admissions officer now, as I get this big head start on things. I am hoping that the novelty of our coming from Madagascar, along with our early planning attitude/seriousness, will make a positive impression. I received fairly friendly replies to my initial emails from a number of schools, especially Brooks and Governor’s. </p>

<p>@honoraryamom, Thanks for sharing your son’s experience. Anecdotal but valuable. :-)</p>

<p>Analyzing data from Boarding School Review
<a href=“Sort Boarding Schools by Key Criteria”>http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_ranking.php&lt;/a&gt;
I’ve tried to tease out the schools that are hidden gems. I’ve identified some interesting prospects based on SSAT v SAT scores, and also based on SSAT score v Admit rate. </p>

<p>First, let’s look at SSAT v SAT scores:
As a rule, schools with high SSAT scores end up with kids that graduate with high SAT scores. Some schools, however, seem to produce kids with high SAT score that a significantly higher than one would predict from their SSAT scores. These schools are the “academic sleepers”.</p>

<p>The data columns below are:

  1. Admit rate
  2. SSAT percentile
  3. SAT score
  4. Predicted SAT score as a function of SSAT
  5. how much higher the predicted SAT is vs actual SAT
  6. school name</p>

<p>If column 5 is positive, then the school is exceeding expectation. I’ve highlighted the schools that have an actual SAT score greater than one standard deviation more than expected, >60. The schools are sorted in descending order of SSAT scores.</p>

<p>20% 94% 2100 2115 -15 Phillips Exeter
13% 94% 2076 2115 -39 Phillips Academy
15% 90% 2080 2072 8 Groton School
25% 90% 2065 2072 -7 Milton Academy
23% 90% 1975 2072 -97 Georgetown Preparatory
15% 89% 2028 2061 -33 St. Paul’s School
18% 87% 2013 2040 -27 The Hotchkiss School
16% 87% 2000 2040 -40 Deerfield Academy
19% 85% 2090 2018 72 Middlesex School
23% 85% 2025 2018 7 Choate Rosemary Hall
52% 85% 2010 2018 -8 Indian Springs
26% 85% 1928 2018 -90 St. Andrew’s School,
56% 85% 1844 2018 -174 Woodside Priory School
20% 84% 2095 2007 88 Lawrenceville School
32% 84% 2050 2007 43 Concord Academy
14% 84% 2018 2007 11 The Thacher School
35% 84% 1940 2007 -67 St. Mark’s School
22% 83% 2027 1996 31 Cate School
20% 83% 1935 1996 -61 The Taft School
27% 81% 1920 1975 -55 St. George’s School
32% 80% 1885 1964 -79 Hill School
70% 80% 1700 1964 -264 Verde Valley School
60% 80% 1697 1964 -267 Midland School
27% 79% 1935 1953 -18 The Loomis Chaffee
n/a 78% 2095 1942 153 Linden Hall
53% 76% 1782 1921 -139 Wyoming Seminary Upper
29% 75% 1840 1910 -70 Blair Academy
28% 70% 1926 1856 70 Westminster School
48% 68% 1939 1834 105 Miss Porter’s School
38% 68% 1939 1834 105 Cranbrook Schools
40% 68% 1866 1834 32 Stevenson School
36% 66% 1950 1813 137 Emma Willard School
40% 65% 1840 1802 38 Saint Andrew’s
45% 65% 1800 1802 -2 Holderness School
50% 65% 1732 1802 -70 Lawrence Academy
66% 65% 1675 1802 -127 The Ethel Walker
42% 65% 1628 1802 -174 Hawai’i Preparatory
36% 63% 1820 1780 40 Lake Forest Academy
75% 63% 1752 1780 -28 Colorado Rocky Mountain
39% 62% 1844 1770 74 Portsmouth Abbey
35% 62% 1786 1770 16 Pomfret School
50% 61% 1827 1759 68 Westover School
33% 61% 1790 1759 31 The Williston Northampton
33% 60% 1860 1748 112 Asheville School
48% 60% 1705 1748 -43 Avon Old Farms
47% 58% 1885 1726 159 Dana Hall School
50% 56% 1800 1705 95 The Bolles School
29% 55% 1910 1694 216 Suffield Academy
39% 55% 1820 1694 126 Canterbury School
50% 55% 1790 1694 **96 Garrison Forest **
37% 54% 1810 1683 127 Salisbury School
48% 54% 1660 1683 -23 Proctor Academy
50% 54% 1548 1683 -135 Brewster Academy
49% 53% 1875 1672 203 Woodberry Forest
35% 50% 1827 1640 187 St. Anne’s-Belfield
75% 50% 1750 1640 110 Ridley College
n/a 50% 1738 1640 98 The Gunnery
60% 50% 1710 1640 70 Trinity-Pawling
56% 50% 1600 1640 -40 Hoosac School
68% 50% 1550 1640 -90 Vermont Academy
69% 45% 1691 1586 105 Rabun Gap-Nacoochee </p>

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<p>Next, SSAT v admit rate:
As a rule, schools with high SSAT scores tend to be more selective. Some schools, however, have more forgiving admit rates than one might predict from their SSAT scores. </p>

<p>The data columns below are:

  1. SSAT percentile
  2. Actual admit rate
  3. Predicted admit rate as a function of SSAT
  4. how much higher the predicted admit rate is vs actual admit rate
  5. school name</p>

<p>If column 4 is positive, then the school’s admit rate is exceeding expectation. There is a lot of scatter in the data, so I would take these predictions with a +/- 0.10 level of confidence. </p>

<p>80% 0.70 0.28 0.42 Verde Valley School
85% 0.56 0.24 **0.33 Woodside Priory School **
80% 0.60 0.28 0.32 Midland School
63% 0.75 0.43 **0.32 Colorado Rocky Mountain **
85% 0.52 0.24 **0.29 Indian Springs **
65% 0.66 0.42 0.25 The Ethel Walker
76% 0.53 0.32 **0.21 Wyoming Seminary Upper **
50% 0.75 0.55 0.20 Ridley College
50% 0.68 0.55 0.13 Vermont Academy
84% 0.35 0.24 0.11 St. Mark’s School
45% 0.69 0.60 0.10 Rabun Gap-Nacoochee
68% 0.48 0.39 0.09 Miss Porter’s School
65% 0.50 0.42 0.09 Lawrence Academy
84% 0.32 0.24 0.08 Concord Academy
90% 0.25 0.19 0.06 Milton Academy
50% 0.60 0.55 0.05 Trinity-Pawling
61% 0.50 0.45 0.05 Westover School
94% 0.20 0.15 0.05 Phillips Exeter
80% 0.32 0.28 0.04 Hill School
90% 0.23 0.19 0.04 Georgetown Preparatory
65% 0.45 0.42 0.04 Holderness School
85% 0.26 0.24 0.03 St. Andrew’s School,
60% 0.48 0.46 0.02 Avon Old Farms
68% 0.40 0.39 0.01 Stevenson School
50% 0.56 0.55 0.01 Hoosac School
65% 0.42 0.42 0.01 Hawai’i Preparatory
56% 0.50 0.50 0.00 The Bolles School
81% 0.27 0.27 0.00 St. George’s School
55% 0.50 0.51 0.00 Garrison Forest
85% 0.23 0.24 0.00 Choate Rosemary Hall
68% 0.38 0.39 -0.01 Cranbrook Schools
58% 0.47 0.48 -0.01 Dana Hall School
54% 0.50 0.51 -0.01 Brewster Academy
65% 0.40 0.42 -0.01 Saint Andrew’s
79% 0.27 0.29 -0.02 The Loomis Chaffee
94% 0.13 0.15 -0.02 Phillips Academy
53% 0.49 0.52 -0.03 Woodberry Forest
83% 0.22 0.25 -0.03 Cate School
54% 0.48 0.51 -0.03 Proctor Academy
75% 0.29 0.33 -0.04 Blair Academy
87% 0.18 0.22 -0.04 The Hotchkiss School
90% 0.15 0.19 -0.04 Groton School
84% 0.20 0.24 -0.04 Lawrenceville School
85% 0.19 0.24 -0.05 Middlesex School
66% 0.36 0.41 -0.05 Emma Willard School
89% 0.15 0.20 -0.05 St. Paul’s School
62% 0.39 0.44 -0.05 Portsmouth Abbey
83% 0.20 0.25 -0.05 The Taft School
87% 0.16 0.22 -0.06 Deerfield Academy
63% 0.36 0.43 -0.07 Lake Forest Academy
70% 0.28 0.37 -0.09 Westminster School
62% 0.35 0.44 -0.09 Pomfret School
84% 0.14 0.24 -0.10 The Thacher School
55% 0.39 0.51 -0.12 Canterbury School
61% 0.33 0.45 -0.12 The Williston Northampton
60% 0.33 0.46 -0.13 Asheville School
54% 0.37 0.51 -0.14 Salisbury School
50% 0.35 0.55 -0.20 St. Anne’s-Belfield
55% 0.29 0.51 -0.22 Suffield Academy</p>

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