Questions abour semester/year abroad

Parent Cafe
1

<p>From reading some post, there seems to exist differences among the various programs abroad. However, even the programs that are advertised as "independent" and "directed" by a single school end up being shared programs. For instance, a great number of programs in France start in Aix-en-Provence, move to Paris, and end up in various degrees at Reid Hall, the Catholic University, or the Sorbonne. So far, I have only seen a handful of truly independent -and specialized- programs.</p>

<p>Does anyone have examples of the differences between the so-called individual school programs and the programs sponsored by larger organizations?</p>

<p>If independent programs really exist, is there a purpose of being grouped with the same brothers and sisters from the US?</p>

<p>Do most of the schools expect students to continue to pay the US fees despite the much lower costs of studying abroad? In most cases, it would MUCH cheaper to bypass the organized programs. </p>

<p>I'd love to hear anyone's experience, especially from parents or students who have taken advantage of the programs. I have a VERY selfish reason for asking. My parents believe that studying abroad would be a wonderful experience. I do not disagree with them, but I am not so sure that the programs organized during the undergraduate years are that great. I feel that I would better off going solo and post-graduation. FWIW, I can study anywhere in Europe and pay the local fees that are a fraction of US tuition.</p>

<p>For some reasons, I seem to replay parts of "L'Auberge Espagnole" in my head! I loved the movie, but would not be too thrilled to have been there! Frankly, I would hate to trade my current environment for SUCH an experience. :) </p>

<p>For those who have not seen it, here is a link: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000C9JFO/103-3453555-1200646?v=glance%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000C9JFO/103-3453555-1200646?v=glance&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

2

<p>Xiggi,</p>

<p>The amount a student pays is usually based on which university/school is sponsoring the study abroad program and whether or not you are attending as a student from that school or from a school that has a reciprocal agreement with the sponsor school. For example, UGA runs a study abroad program in Italy (art history, architecture, etc...). UGA students are covered for tuition purposes via UGA tuition rates (not including air transportation, optional trips, some medical, etc...). A few southern colleges "tag" along with this UGA program, but their students pay the higher tuition rates of the private college for the same experience. For programs such as these, a professor from the host school (in this example, UGA) goes with the student group and organizes the coursework. </p>

<p>This is not the same as going abroad as an exchange student, where you would actually attend a foreign university's courses, and usually without a home faculty member present (indepent travel). I think when you ask about the lower tuition rates for many foreign schools, you may be thinking of such student exchanges. I believe the fees/tuition vary by foreign university and by whether or not your home university has a formal exchange program with the foreign school (where studetnts are often exchanged on a one-for-one basis). When a student is sponsored through their home university in such an exchange, they often pay their home university's "rates," and this applies to the foreign student as well (they are not paying the higher US rates). But this varies.</p>

<p>As an aside, over 300 US colleges have a student exchange program where a student can spend a year at another US institution who is a member of this group. Tuition rules here can depend on whether or not the schools involved are state schools, the student's state residency, and agreements between the colleges themselves (sometimes funding/endowments to available to equalizes the tuition differential).While this is not travel to a foreign country, it is a broadening experience for many students.</p>

<p>There are also "travel abroad" experiences for students that can result in credits transferred to them (and sometimes, in no credits allowed for transfer), but the fees for such programs are paid directly to the comercial enterprise running such programs. </p>

<p>I know this is far from complete or specific information, but it is what I have recently learned as my D prepares to go abroad.</p>

<p>P.S. Many foreign schools that are state supported will not allow you to pay the lower rates even if you were attending independently (not all, but many), similar to our "out-of-state-tuition" status problems here. Also, if you are planning to attend independently, then you may have to apply for admission just like any new student. Avoiding this admission process is what the exchange part does for you. If your home college has an agreement and supports your exchange, they are "backing" you, sort of "guaranteeing" you are of college caliber, and thus, eliminating your requirement for formal admission to the foreign school. Your home college is telling the exchange school that you are "OK," and their exchange agreement is smoothing your attendance abroad.</p>

3

<p>I have looked into this quite closely. I think, as with anything, it really depends on the program and who is running it. </p>

<p>Most of the programs run by commercial companies/organizations and not specific schools do look kind of weak to me, especially when you consider that you have no control over who else will also be a student or who will be your "teachers" while you are abroad. Those programs seem to have very few entrance requirements, basically anyone who can afford to go can go, and they are never very clear about who the teachers will be, at least from what I have been able to uncover. I get the sense that many of these programs are just an excuse to have fun rather than an academically rigorous program. There are, of course, some exceptions, but I would say these types of programs need to be vetted very, very carefully before spending money and time on them. One such program I recently looked at actually gave 3 credits to students for a class in "french food."</p>

<p>The best programs - and this is just my opinion - are those run by individual schools using their own faculty. At least then you have some quality control and there is usually an underlying focus to these programs. Second best would be programs run by other schools of a similar caliber to your school, but make sure to check where they usually pull students from and whether they have an admission requirement of some sort. Some of the school-run programs are absolutely amazing and I would not hesitate to send my daughter on one of them. (My personal favorite is St. Olaf's global semester, where you take classes in politics, economics, and history in different countries including Egypt, Korea, Europe, and elsewhere over the term).</p>

<p>The other option I would consider would be a direct exchange program, where you actually are an enrolled student at a foreign university. That can get a bit dicey in terms of credit transfer, financial aid, and so on, but could be a worthwhile experience IF the school has something specific to offer that you can't get at your home campus. For instance, the chance to study economics at the London School of Economics, or classics at Oxford, or Asian Studies at Waseda University in Tokyo.</p>

<p>So, I don't think there is a specific answer to your question, it all really depends on the program and your goals as to whether studying abroad is worth the investment of time and money. I did recently write about this on my college info. website, with some links to various programs, so you might want to check that information out and see if helps. It's too lengthy to repeat again here.</p>

4

<p>haha. Which parts did of L'Auberge made you uncomfortable? Don't make me worry about you Xiggi.....</p>

<p>Self-directed, independent abroad programs are possible, but you must do heaps of leg work in advance to ensure your university will give you credit toward graduation. Even back in the day, <em>adjusts her bifocals</em>, I did an unauthorized, unacreddited semester. By pre-arrangement, my university gave me full credit (even though they did not make a dime from that semester).</p>

<p>Sometimes the abroad programs have hidden bargains. For example, the 8 week CET immersive mandarin program in Beijing counts as an entire year's worth of university mandarin. Basically, a student gets two semesters credit for the price of one semester. </p>

<p>As far as being surrounded by other Americans, there are comforts and discomforts in that arrangement.</p>

<p>If you do decide to go abroad, let me know. Akin to your SAT tips, I have a few Minimize Culture Shock tips that might serve you well. :)</p>

5

<p>Thanks for your replies.</p>

<p>Cheers, let's just say that I'd rather avoid the "living conditions" presented in the movie. :) </p>

<p>To clarify the issue of organizations, I should have mentioned that I meant organizations such as as IES (<a href="http://www.iesabroad.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.iesabroad.org&lt;/a&gt;) and CIEE (<a href="http://www.ciee.org)%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ciee.org)&lt;/a>. Those are obviously the ones listed on Carolyn's remarkable website. </p>

<p>For instance, for France, what differences would there be between:</p>

<p>A. Programs such as <a href="http://www.ce.columbia.edu/paris/intro.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ce.columbia.edu/paris/intro.cfm&lt;/a> or <a href="http://www.smith.edu/studyabroad/jya/paris.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smith.edu/studyabroad/jya/paris.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>B. Programs such as the ones listed below:</p>

<p>Program Sponsor: The Institute for the International Education of Students (IES)
Program Name: IES - Paris
Website: <a href="http://www.iesabroad.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.iesabroad.org&lt;/a>
Description: At IES Paris, following an on-site placement test, students can enroll in French language, three area studies courses taught in French by local faculty at the IES Center, and at least one university course each semester at Paris IV (Sorbonne), Paris VIII Vincennes-St. Denis, the Ecole Normale de Musique de Paris, and the Institut Catholique de Paris, a private university. Based on test results, advanced students may enroll in additional regular university courses.</p>

<p>Program Sponsor: The American University Center of Provence (AUCP)
Program Name: AUCP - Aix-en-Provence
Website: <a href="http://www.aucp.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aucp.org&lt;/a>
Description: The AUCP academic program motivates learning from both inside and outside the classroom. In addition to the French practicum, students combine all French coursework with individualized experiential learning components.
Academics: Courses in literature, political science, cinema, art history, studio art, and European civilization are available. The program includes a French practicum, community service, language partners, and limited direct enrollment at the Universite de Provence.</p>

<p>Program Sponsor: Hamilton College
Program Name: Hamilton College Junior Year in France
Website: <a href="http://www.hamilton.edu/academics/off-campusstudy.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hamilton.edu/academics/off-campusstudy.html&lt;/a>
Description: Following a preliminary session in Biarritz where the Hamilton program participants become familiar with French life and the French education system, students move to Paris for the full academic year. Students then have a wide selection of course offerings at the Universit</p>

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<p>Hmmmm. Xiggi, what do you want out of an experience in France?</p>

<p>For example, virtually knowing you and your high standards, I would pick the Middlebury program. Middlebury has an outstanding "abroad" reputation. Their student would be your peer.</p>

<p>What sort of student does the IES program attract? You are in university, after all. This is the time to surround yourself with stimulating intellects.</p>

<p>Where will you find a set of peers? For example, which French university classes would be full of French Xiggis? (Imagine the debates! Imagine the long cafe hours! Do you have marite's email? She would be a wonderful resource on this query).</p>

<p>Meaningful peer relationships could lead to broader career avenues than you might have otherwise considered. </p>

<p>For example, a family friend spent a year at the Sorbonne. That year lead to her decision to study Napoleonic law at Tulane. That Napoleonic law degree led to a position in France shaping the International Court system. She now a leading lawyer and law lecturer in International Law and the International Court.</p>

7

<p>Our experience is with Germany, not France, but there might be similarities. S did "Junior Year in Munich" (That is the name of the program. -- And he planned to do this before we knew we'd be living there at the time. He was the only student in the program whose parents dropped him off!) Students in the program were from all over the US. JYIM has it's own fees, but I think most schools charged their usual tuition / R&B and paid the JYIM fees out of that. </p>

<p>Supposedly this program involves a "trade" of professors as well, although we aren't aware of any US professor being there (may have been!) and that professor certainly didn't teach JYIM students if he/she was there. While there, S took one course via JYIM, with other JYIM students -- a culture / language class, I think -- taught by JYIM staff. Otherwise, all his classes were in the German school (Ludwig Maximilliam University) with German students and German professors. He was graded like any other student, and had the same expectations on him. In one class there happened to be another JYIM student. Otherwise, he was the only American. JYIM did a few social activities together, but they strongly urged the students to not hang with other JYIM students, but get out of their US comfort zone. One thing S did was to meet weekly with a German student who wanted to improve her English, and they would converse half the time in each language. </p>

<p>The experience remains one of his most meaningful in college. He managed to get rid of his American accent, and experiencing the culture is "somewhat" :) different from reading about it.</p>

<p>Side point: One of his friends is doing a "study abroad" program this summer via their school (not sure which one) which involves visiting 3 or 4 different countries (or more?) in a 6 week period. Sound fun, but obviously a completely different kind of experience. So "study abroad" apparently means different things in different schools.</p>

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<p>"Do most of the schools expect students to continue to pay the US fees despite the much lower costs of studying abroad? In most cases, it would MUCH cheaper to bypass the organized programs."</p>

<p>Yes, most schools will require you to pay their regular tuition, room and board for your semester abroad. So, if you are going to a private school in the US, for the same program abroad you'll be paying three times more then you would if you were attending a state school. This hardly seems fair. Also, if you are going to a really good US school, the ACADEMIC part of your study abroad will probably not be the highlight of your experience. You'll still probably have a lot of fun, and gain valuable benefits from the culture/language immersion, etc. Is it worth $20,000 for a semester (especially knowing that it should cost ~$6000)? I am not sure about that... I think your post-graduate study plan makes a lot of sense...</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
That can get a bit dicey in terms of credit transfer

[/quote]

No kidding. I am a big fan of direct exchange programs, but the credit issue is one that you really have to keep an eye on. I participated in the initial year of my school's foreign exchange program with a UK university -- wonderful experience, but some kinks had yet to be worked out, including transfer credits. Ultimately, I simply got pass/fail credit for the whole year. That may not sound like a big deal, but when it came to explaining 30 HOURS of Pass/Fail credit on my transcript when trying to apply to law school . . .</p>

<p>Still, direct exchange is my favorite type of program, and the best way to fully become integrated into a different culture. A lot of the other programs just look like an extended vacation.</p>

10

<p>"Do most of the schools expect students to continue to pay the US fees despite the much lower costs of studying abroad? In most cases, it would MUCH cheaper to bypass the organized programs."</p>

<p>This does seem to vary from school to school. I know Georgetown recently changed its policy and now requires that you pay the greater of the program cost or Georgetown regular tution. In checking the Duke website it appears that their students pay the program fee plus an administrative fee for the study abroad term (if I remember correctly it is a couple thousand dollars). I think you have to check directly with your school.</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I concur with nngmm about the cost of abroad programs. For some schools, they must be "profit centers", as the actual abroad tuition is often much lower than the tuition the U.S. school is charging. However, if a student receives substantial financial aid, it may not matter so much. At Smith, for example, any financial aid "travels with" the student on an abroad program. </p>

<p>However, for a "full pay" family, the economics may suggest an alternative route. My understanding of many abroad programs, particularly in Europe, is that the system is geared to much more independent study and fewer meetings with profs. (Perhaps that is why tuition is generally lower.) I saw no reason to be paying $20,000+/semester plus travel expenses for my D to study abroad, although I was willing to pay that for her semesters at Smith. Instead, my D used her AP credits to take a leave of absence for one semester of her junior year. She arranged her own abroad experience, worked in the country (China), got language training as part of her job, was paid a modest salary, got airfare reimbursement, and experienced the culture as few abroad students do. By leaving in the summer (June) and taking the fall off, she had over six months in the country and was able to travel on her own to Thailand and Hong Kong as well. Basically, it was a "do it yourself" abroad experience and she will graduate on time with her class while saving us one semester's costs.
I don't know why more people don't consider this alternative. Again, financial aid considerations would be a factor for some. But actually living and working in a foreign culture is so much more than sitting in a classroom with other students, many of them fellow Americans.</p>

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<p>I don't know anything about their program in Paris, but the IES program in Milan is very well-known, and considered a plum, especially for music students (and has ties to Scripps). It is headed by a composer, and students get to take lessons at the Verdi Conservatory. They are also pretty good about setting up internships in the arts and through La Scala.</p>

<p>But you are right - the programs do differ. Smith's programs, for example (since it is the one we know best), require a minimum of two full years of college language study, plus a course in "stylistics" before you are allowed to attend, plus a pledge not to use English while you are there. This is actually quite rare - I don't know of any other programs in Italy with the two-year requirement. Students are required to take courses at the local u. AND a course or two with Smith faculty (on language facility, and, for lack of a better term, exploring cultural idiosyncracies). American students do not live together, but with families, with whom they take breakfast and dinner. They also have internship programs - in Geneva, in the NGO world, in Florence with the schools, etc. They also have a fellowship program for paid research following the year. (One has to go for the entire year - no semester only enrollment. The one in Italy has traditionally been way oversubscribed, and requirements are being tightened even further.)</p>

<p>For us, it is a no-brainer, in that we couldn't afford for my d. to do it in any other way (Smith is also paying most of the costs of her trip to Cambodia/India - she leaves tomorrow night!) She is also thinking about using her Smith-paid summer internship in Italy before the program begins - we have good contacts with the Italian NGO community.</p>

13

<p>Many colleges we've looked at require you to pay their domestic tuition while your child is abroad but do not require the room and board payment for service you are not using.</p>

14

<p>Xiggi - Omigod how exciting if I can actually offer you some info of value!</p>

<p>Princeton has its own program, called Princeton in France. Unfortunately it's not open to other students, or at least it wasn't 25 years ago. However, if I were you I would emulate the experience.</p>

<p>Here's what it was. Simply, a summer job in France. Jyber is right. If you work in the country you want to learn about you learn the language much better and learn much more about the country. I spent the summer between my F and S years in college working in France. I came back with fluent French and an abiding love and understanding of the country. My friends who did semesters abroad, even with Stanford, say, have forgotten their French and mostly remember hanging out with other Americans. I was the sole American in my job, in what was then a remote part of the country. One of the best things I ever did.</p>

<p>So if you go a) make sure you are the only or one of the few Americans b) work if you can and spend a summer and if it has to be the school year let it be only one semester. Because it will be very difficult to find the educational experience in France that you are getting at Claremont.</p>

15

<p>I think Cheers' question is very, very important: What do you want out of your time in France (or any other country)? </p>

<p>Once you answer this question, sorting through your options will be easier. If you want job experience, then a program that includes an internship would be the one to look for (or, as others have suggested, arrange to work abroad for a summer or semester). If you want specific knowledge about a subject from a different cultural perspective (i.e., EU economics), then you want to find a program and school that will let you take specific courses in that area. If improving your language skills is your main goal, than a progran that offers intensive language classes and the opportunity to take classes in the language should be what you're looking for. Do you want the chance to interact with people in the country beyond in the classroom? There are programs that emphasize service while abroad. And, there's nothing wrong with deciding that what you mainly want is a chance to just live in another country - I do think that is valuable and worthwhile in and of itself - but you may choose a different type of program if that's your main goal.</p>

<p>But, I'd start with Cheers' question and then go in search of programs and options. I know you well enough to know that you are very good at setting goals for yourself! :)</p>