Questions about a MSF degree

Graduate School
1

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I am an international student currently doing a double major in Economics/Sociology at the University of Michigan. I want to get a job in financial industry and eventually do an MBA. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, the way the H1B visa program (which allows foreigners to work in the USA) works means that it might be problematic for me to get a job in the US after I graduate from U of M. One solution to this problem is to get a masters degree. It is significantly easier to get an H1B visa with a Masters degree than with only a BA. </p>

<p>I am considering getting an MSF degree as it would provide me with valuable skills that would contribute to my career goals.</p>

<p>I have several issues regarding the MSF degree that I would like to clarify:</p>

<li><p>Is it worth getting an MSF degree from a upper level tier 2 school? I am thinking of applying to John Hopkins, Boston College, Vanderbilt and George Washington University (I am labeled these institutions tier 2 based on their class profiles).</p></li>
<li><p>To what extent is work experience is integral part of the MSF program? Judging from the overviews of the MSF courses from various university websites, work experience doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal. But then again if you look at the class profiles, a significant portion of MSF students seem to have work experience.</p></li>
<li><p>Is a mathematical/engineering background essential to succeed in an MSF program? Tier 1 institutions seem to emphasize this point. I have some background in math and statistics, but nothing like a minor/major in math.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>In general, judging from the university websites I am getting an impression that MSF and MSF-like courses are pretty much like MBA programs. Tier 1 one institutions all seem to require lots of work experience, this makes me think that doing an MSF degree at a tier 2 institution would be like doing an MBA without work experience? Am I correct?</p>

<p>Thank you in advance.</p>

2

<p>Anyone?</p>

<p>Perhaps someone could point me to in the right direction to find this kind of information?</p>

3

<p>I know a bit about MSF vs MBA etc. The job market in financial engineering or computational finance, for which the MSF prepares you, is small and fiercely competitive. It is a true meritocracy. So, you either graduate from one of the top programs or there is no point. The top programs are Haas, Columbia, NYU, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago and Cornell. Don't waste your time anywhere else. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to get into one of these from a second tier undergrad; if you manage this, then your undergrad school's importance will recede, not disappear entirely. Your grad school will be critical. </p>

<p>If you want a general finance grad degree then there are more jobs and you can expand the no of schools to the top 20 or so. These programs largely prepare you for corporate finance jobs but some, like princeton's do prepare you for quant finance also. Go to Princeton's website, and to the Bendheim center or Engineering School's Operations Res department website and you will find links to articles on the differences between mfin and financial engr and mba. I am not good at cutting and pasting links etc but if you have difficulty I will ask my son to send you the links.</p>

<p>MBA and MFin are very different. The former sacrifices depth for breadth, hence courses in marketing, human resource management; the latter is indepth prep in finance topics. Increasingly, mfinance is posing a threat to the MBA in the areas of private equity, etc. </p>

<p>The MFE programs do not emphasize work experience since unlike MBA etc work does not add to the quality of the grad experience to the same degree. That is, your knowledge of partial diff eq is more important than the fact that you worked at Goldman on some deals. of course, all things being equal, work experience in addition to good undergrad preparation will be an advantage.</p>

<p>You need undergrad preparation in quantitative areas like physics or engineering in order to have the courses in comp sci and math but if you have these from an econ program for example that too is fine. Increasingly, these programs are realizing that there are a lot of folks with quant backgrounds, there are a lot with finance background but only a very few with finance intuition. If you can show early focus, some success in a college finance or investment club that would help.</p>

<p>Please go to the website for Haas, Chicago etc, to their mfe sites and you will find out all you need. Good luck.</p>

4

<p>Before you start on the MSF, just confirm with an immigration attorney that you will be eligible to apply for the H1-B visa since if memory serves correctly I think that you need at least 2 years of work experience regardless of whether you have a masters degree.</p>

5

<p>Good idea to consult an immigration attorney. But it would be OK to continue with an F 1 for graduate work, then use the 1 year work experience aspect of F1 student visa to look for an employer who will sponsor you for H1B. That is valid for 2 years but can be extended whilst you apply for green card.</p>

6

<p>What are the top tier masters in general finance universities? I know princeton is one, but what about others. haas, columbia, etc are quant finance.</p>

<p>and also, is getting an mba after masters in finance something stupid to do?</p>

7

<p>Ramaswami, </p>

<p>you are exaggerating the importance of undergrad prestige... Many graduates from Suffolk and UMASS Boston, great schools in their own right despite being Tier 3'ed by US News, go on to HBS and Sloan... </p>

<p>Perhaps having a solid academic portfolio, work experience and Excellent GMAT scores could help? </p>

<p>With regards to work experience, I have heard that Ivy league schools focus much less on work experience for admission to their MBA programs. Then again, to be admitted, you should already have created something amazing (a freind of mine from UMASS Boston, created a student cooperative movement on campus and scored 750 on his GMAT's, yeah he was a shoe in to HBS)</p>

8

<p>sheel, no one is a shoe-in at HBS. You can always find a personal anecdote of someone from UMass going to HBS but these are rare examples. Look up feeder schools for grad programs and MBA programs. I am not overestimating the importance of undergrad colleges. They are very important. Because they have screened students already.</p>

<p>Work experience is very important, rare to get into top MBA programs without work experience, possible, but rare.</p>

<p>MBA after MFin is not at all a bad idea.</p>

<p>There was a list of top MFin programs in the article cited on the Pton Bendheim link, if you are unable to get it, email me (PM) and I will give you the names.</p>

9

<p>Thank you all,</p>

<p>So, as I understand, a degree from a tier 2 MSF institution is worthless? What about the foreign job market? Places like Canada and Australia seem to be in a need of skilled workers. So as I understand MSF based degrees are very math orientated, I think my math is probably not good enough as I don't really have a very strong pure math background. </p>

<p>Regarding, immigration detail, from my discussions with the people in our international center, you can initiate the H1B process through an employer after graduation. The difference between doing it after undegrad and masters is that the masters pool is less competitive, so there is much higher chance of you getting a H1B (if you find an employer that is willing to sponsor you in the first place). </p>

<p>When you refer to general finance grad degree, what exactly do you mean? Because isn't MSF a Master of Science in Finance? Could you give me some examples of such degree so I start conducting looking into this issues?</p>

<p>Yeah, I don't think an MSF degree is really for me.</p>

<p>Thank you,</p>

10

<p>end of eternity, I would not say a degree from a second tier MFin program is useless. I am sorry I confused MFin with MFE, so I will correct any misinformation I may have given. For MFE: math up to linear algebra and diff eq, not pure math. Also computer science courses. For MFin, depending on the program you may get away with less. For MFin, roughly, top 20 or top 30 schools OK, for MFE stick to top 10. There are fewer jobs for MFE than for MFin. MFin is a more versatile degree.</p>

<p>Did you go to the Pton Operations Res website, to the financial engr articles links? You find the links in the FAQ section. Some MFin institutions that are OK: Boston College, Bentley College, Johns Hopkins, U of Denver, U of Houston, Syracuse, Texas A and M, Vanderbilt, etc.</p>

<p>Why are you so focused on H1 B? If you get into an MFin degree you can get a student visa, F1, I think, and worry about H1 later, after you get the master's.</p>

11

<p>I must say that this is an interesting topic. I’ll touch on a few points. My opinion, from experience working at major financial companies, is to get your foot in the door you need to show some gold standard…whether it be Tier 1 college or a solid / competitive internship. I must say, that an MBA from a top 10 does not guarantee anything. Let me explain, skills and credentials are two very different things, which many seem to confuse. I’ve worked for managers from Columbia Business School, MBA, and frankly I am not impressed. Everyone in finance is now on the chopping board and must prove their worth, even those from top universities. Do not expect something great to come out of school if you don’t know your strenghts/ weaknesses. My humble advise is to get work experience and prove your “skills” and get solid recommendations. If you can lead a team and match that with a specific area, you can prove a lot. Even more with a MSF. I’m assuming that you have a decent undergrad and looking for programs to better market yourself. I’m not against MBAs, but frankly I see it is an oversold credential. In turn, the breadth and no depth in my opinion is not necessarily a good thing since you can easily gain HR / Operations (soft skills) at the work place at no expense. If you compare MBA Fin and MSF you’ll notice that MSF builds more on hard skills. There are always exceptions, but whatever your choice be open-minded about what works for you best (MSF / MBA). Best of luck!</p>