Questions About Economics Graduate School

<p>I'm a high school senior, and I am interested in eventually earning my PhD in economics. Right now, I'm in the process of choosing my undergraduate college, and I am basically choosing between Reed College and New College of Florida. Both of these institutions have wonderful reputations among graduate schools.</p>

<p>Just to plan ahead and get everything straight, I have a few questions about graduate programs.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What are the benefits of doing a MA program before a PhD? I know many undergraduates go straight to a PhD after finishing a BA. Are MA programs easier to be accepted to?</p></li>
<li><p>Specifically for economics, what are graduate schools looking for? I'm planning on double majoring in economics and political science. I want to pursue economics further, and political science is just something I am interested in. Would I be better off double majoring in economics and finance? Additionally, I had a history teacher that said Stanford wouldn't even look at her application for their master's program unless she spoke another language fluently. Is this the norm for most graduate programs at Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale, etc? I also had my economics teacher that attended grad school in Chicago say that U of Chicago doesn't look at any graduate applications for economics unless you have up to calculus 3 and have an intense background in math.</p></li>
<li><p>How influential are professor connections? For example, if I have an undergrad econ professor that went to University of Chicago for his PhD, how much influence does he have if I am trying to be accepted to Chicago's graduate program?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Math is the most important subject (in addition to econ) you can focus on in college if you are interested in a PhD in economics. Three semesters of calculus, a semester of linear (matrix algebra) and a semester of real analysis is standard now among applicants. Also useful is calculus-based statistics. As you approach your senior year, you should make plans to do a research project involving what you have learned in an econometrics course. Professor connections might be nice but you need a good GRE score in the top 10 percentile to get funded offers at a good program. PhD econ programs will pay you to attend and serve as a TA or RA.Foreign language and double major not relevant (unless that second major is in math or statistics). You don’t really have to have an econ major as long as you have the math and a handful of econ courses. Masters not needed for entry into PhD unless your undergrad background is too weak for good programs. </p>

<p>Quite honestly, that sounds dreadful. I like the social aspects of economics More than the hard calculations.</p>

<p>Perhaps I should pursue political science or psychology instead? I’m most interested in behavioral economics, which isn’t overly “mathy”</p>

<p>If the idea of higher, challenging math sounds kind of dreadful to you - then yes, another kind of major/PhD would probably be best. Economists use different levels of math but advanced math (the entire calculus sequence through multivariable calculus, linear algebra, probability and statistics, and real analysis) is pretty essential to economics at the doctoral level.</p>

<p>If you are interested in behavioral economics, a PhD in psychology might be a good choice for you. It completely depends on what you mean by behavioral economics, though. If you’re interested in why people making purchasing decisions, how marketing works, how to improve management and operations within organizations - then yes, a psychology major with an economics minor is a good bet. I went to an Ivy League that had a top 10 business school attached for grad school in psychology, and <em>many</em> of the business school professors actually had PhDs in psychology and studied behavioral economics issues from that lens. And many of the top behavioral economists are psychologists by training. Dan Ariely at Duke has a PhD in cognitive psychology (and was an undergrad psych major); Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky are also cognitive psychologists by training. Paul Slovic also got his PhD in psychology, and Herbert Simon is actually a political scientist by training who also studied economics and psychology. (You can find profiles of these folks on the behavioral economics page on Wikipedia.)</p>

<p>You’d want to get a PhD in psych at a place that had a somewhat flexible curriculum that allowed you to take significant coursework in the economics department and the business department, and work with psychologists who do behavioral economics work as well as folks in other departments. My alma mater, Columbia, is a good place to do that. I would also encourage you to seriously look into the possibility of a PhD in business, as there is a great need for business professors and thus it is far easier to get an academic job in that field - AND business professors get paid a lot more than psychology professors do. You can become a business professor with a psych degree, but it’s far easier to do it with a business degree.</p>

<p>I will warn you, though, that advanced degrees in psychology (and all of the social sciences) do require a grasp on math and statistics - and the more math you take, the better your job prospects and the cooler the studies you can do. Behavioral economists/organizational psychologists use advanced statistical methods to analyze their data collected from studies. Of course, some psychologists still do mostly experimental studies and the statistical techniques necessary for that are much simpler. And it’s nowhere near as math-heavy as econ - you wouldn’t have to take calculus, for example…but if you DID take calculus, that would be useful to you. You will have to take statistics, both at the undergrad level and the graduate level, although in psychology the statistics won’t be calculus-based (at least unless you wanted to get more advanced).</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>As for your questions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>In general, I think many students choose to do an MA because they are not ready to go to a PhD program, or they want to work for a few years before they attend a PhD program, or because they feel that their application package needs a boost - either better recommendations, a higher GPA, or more research experience. I will say that in psychology there are few reasons to get an MA before a PhD. The only good one is if you have a truly abysmal undergrad GPA and you need to prove that you can do graduate-level work. In most cases it’s far better to work as a research assistant or a lab manager for 2-3 years post-college (and maybe take a few graduate classes as a non-degree student). (This is not true in economics, though, as there’s a lot of use for an MA in economics.)</p></li>
<li><p>The answer above already addressed the math requirenents. Remember that different fields require different things, so what someone tells you in one field won’t necessarily be applicable in others. So for the language thing - most humanities fields (including history) require reading proficiency in two languages, because many scholarly and primary works in those fields are written in other languages. I don’t think that’s the case in economics, though.</p></li>
<li><p>Some - it depends on the professor, their level of ongoing connection to the program, and who they know. Let’s say that your undergrad econ professor went to UChicago for his PhD but studied environmental economics and worked with a couple of environmental economists. And as a professor at a small liberal arts college, he might be very bright but not necessarily famous or influential in the field. He may not know the behavioral economists at UChicago very well, and although he could speak directly to your ability to achieve in UChicago’s program, he might not have a lot of influence with the particular people you need to get on board. It’s just like - if I recommended a student more broadly to my alma mater’s PhD program, that might get the application looked at more closely, but not necessarily tipped in.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>But let’s say that Professor Y is a behavioral economist and worked under Professor X at UChicago, who is also who you really want to work with. That DOES matter - because Professor Y can call up or email Professor X and say “I have this student who is amazing, and I think he’d be a great fit for your research group, please take a look at his CV.” If Professor Y was a great student (which, if he’s teaching at Reed or NCF, he probably was) then his evaluation matters to Professor X, and now you have a professor who has some curiosity in your case. I do know of several cases in which the Professor X has come to know the applicant through a colleague and/or former student of theirs, and the applicant’s profile was raised in terms of getting accepted to a program (and I’ve helped facilitate this kind of connection myself before).</p>

<p>Or even if Professor Y didn’t necessarily go to UChicago - but maybe he and Professor X went to grad school together, or worked on a project together, or see each other every year at some conference and Professor X has a high opinion of him. That can work in your favor, too. Basically, personal connections and networking are just as important in academia as they are everywhere else. BUT it is important to note that most graduate students get admitted without these personal connections. I didn’t know anyone at Columbia before I was admitted, nor did anyone I know know anyone there. In my cohort of 12 in the psych department, I think only 2 had a pre-existing connection before they were admitted.</p>

<p>The economics faculty at Reed have gone to the very best places - Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, and UIUC. The psychology faculty at Reed also have an impressive array of alma maters. The same is true at NCF in both departments.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>I also just want to note that while I applaud you for thinking ahead, I also encourage you to kind of go with the flow and let your interests rise to the top. Don’t stress about grad school too early. Do the things to prepare, of course (if you want to go into a psychology PhD, you will need research experience, and the earlier you start the better), but don’t think overmuch about what kinds of programs you want to go to until your junior year.</p>

<p>Wow. This is by far the most comprehensive, lengthy reply that I’ve ever gotten on CC. I’m just going to number everything as I go down to keep everything organized. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>How difficult is it to get into PhD programs at a place like Columbia? Is it as competitive as their undergraduate programs or law school? How does the admissions process really work?</p></li>
<li><p>There’s a high need for business professors? Every single article I see online says that jobs in academia are scarce, and you’re lucky if you can get one. To have a field where professors are in high need, that is pretty good news.</p></li>
<li><p>Is a PhD in business as math-intensive as a PhD in economics? What should my undergraduate major be if I want to pursue a PhD in business?</p></li>
<li><p>What about being a law professor? Obviously it’s not the same pathway, as I have noticed most law professors spent time practicing law before they began teaching.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I just can’t help it, lol. I start trying to make a short comment and it goes on forever. I actually edited that one down - it was longer!</p>

<ol>
<li><p>This varies by PhD program, but generally speaking, it is very competitive. For an example, Stanford’s PhD program in economics gets 700 applications every year and they admit 50 students, for an admissions rate of 7%, which is a little higher than their undergrad rate. I think top economics programs tend to be all in that range. Top psychology programs in very competitive subfields (clinical and social) can have admissions rates around 10-12%. So almost as competitive as top undergrad admissions.</p></li>
<li><p>Jobs in academia ARE scarce, but there are a few selected fields in which attracting professors is difficult because they could make more money in non-academic jobs. Business is one of those fields; most people don’t consider getting a PhD in business, since even with an MBA you can make more out the gate than a new business professor could make. And if you have a PhD in business, you could probably make piles of money doing consulting or something. So actually some business schools have started training programs to attract non-business PhDs in social science fields and retrain them to teach in business. Some subfields within business are more competitive than others; for example, accounting is wide open, whereas marketing is a little more competitive. (Nursing is another field with a faculty shortage; even the top nursing schools post 3-4 faculty positions a year.)</p></li>
<li><p>It doesn’t have to be. If you wanted a PhD in finance or accounting it would be (albeit in different ways). If you went into marketing or management, you’d only need the math necessary to do advanced statistical analysis to conduct studies. Do know, though, that the more math and stats you learn the more in-demand and employable you will be.</p></li>
<li><p>Academic law is also extremely competitive. You need to get a JD from a top 14 law school, probably do law review, and assist a law professor with research during law school. You may or may not need to practice first. I had a friend in graduate school who actually had a JD already from Penn; she was getting a PhD because in her perception, the law market was so competitive that getting a PhD on top of her already earned JD would help her enter the academic law market as a better candidate.</p></li>
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<p>I understand that you’re still exploring because you’re brand new, but one thing to remember is that for the most part, people don’t become professors for the sake of being one. You get a PhD and enter academia because you really want to do research in a particular area, and passion for research is what drives most people (even though the irony is that the majority of professor positions are at primarily teaching colleges).</p>

<p>Thanks for all of this info. I think I will just have to go with the flow and see where my undergrad studies take me. But now I at least have an idea of what I’m looking at.</p>