<p>I have many questions about my freshman son who is taking 2 graduate classes for his intended major (1st semester he took 1 grad class). He thinks that going forward, in order to fulfill his math major requirements, that all his classes will be in the graduate school. This is unfamiliar territory for me so please excuse my ignorance on this topic. I am hoping that the wise parents on this board can enlighten me.</p>
<p>If he continues to take graduate classes for the next three years, does it not stand to reason that he should be getting a master's degree instead of a bachelor's? Or could he get his bachelor's in a shorter period of time once all the core requirements have been met since he has proven proficiency in his undergrad major?</p>
<p>Ideally my son should be getting all the answers directly from his school, but he is really dragging his feet on this. He is quite content to take his classes and does not want to worry about any of the administrative stuff. I, however, as a full pay parent, would like to maximize his tuition dollars, but I am not sure what a reasonable outcome is for this type of situation. So while I understand that there are no universal rules on this, I am hoping to get a general idea about how this would work for my son.</p>
<p>Does anyone have any experience with such a situation? Are there certain questions that my son should be asking his adviser? I would appreciate any opinions on this. Many thanks.</p>
<p>Unless the department has a five year bachelor’s/masters program or something similar, he cannot get a master’s degree because he is not a masters student. Also, depending on what kind of master’s degrees are offered by the department (coursework vs thesis/research), simply taking the classes may not fulfill the master’s requirements. Some programs do not even offer terminal master’s degrees, so I guess the answer is that it highly depends on the school program.</p>
<p>Where I go, you’re allowed to transfer a number of credits (I think the exact number varies by department, in my department it’s 15) from undergrad to grad if they’re not used for any undergrad requirement. But they certainly aren’t going to give him a masters degree without him being a masters student and paying masters tuition. </p>
<p>As for getting the Bachelors in shorter amount of time, there are still going to be requirements he needs to meet that they grad classes don’t fill. Just because they’re harder, doesn’t mean the school will let them substitute. Likely he’ll be making a choice between graduating early and taking grad classes, not graduating early because he took grad classes.</p>
<p>Is your son interested in going to grad school? If so graduating early would put him at somewhat of a disadvantage compared to students who took the full 4 years to build up their applications. If he is interested in a PhD, he can certainly get admitted to those programs with a strong bachelor’s record (which would include applicable research experience, etc).</p>
<p>My understanding is that if you’re planning to get a PhD in math there is no point in getting a masters degree ahead of time. Most students at top math graduate schools will have taken lots of graduate classes in undergrad as well. In most cases grad classes will count towards the major requirements but there are still other requirements for graduating.</p>
<p>Given how far ahead he is (presumably with credit for lots of undergraduate math courses at least), it would not be surprising if he could complete a bachelor’s degree in less than 8 semesters. But he would not automatically get a master’s degree unless the school had a bachelor’s / master’s combined degree program in his major.</p>
<p>Most Ph.D. programs in core academic disciplines like math don’t require a Master’s degree before pursuing the Ph.D. The normal trajectory for a math whiz who wants to get a math Ph.D. would be to excel in a rigorous undergrad math curriculum, including as many graduate-level courses as the student can handle, then get accepted directly into a top Ph.D. program. In most such programs, the Master’s degree is basically a consolation prize awarded to those who don’t complete the Ph.D. In some programs, there may be a few students pursuing a terminal Master’s, but the Master’s students are typically paying full freight while the Ph.D. students are generally fully supported.</p>
<p>Bottom line: don’t worry about the Master’s. The normal progression for a stellar math student is Bachelor’s → Ph.D.</p>
<p>Some graduate programs do not specifically require that applicants complete a Bachelor’s degree at all. If he is truly accellerated in his subject area, he may be able to go straight into a Ph.D. program from where he is now. If that is what he’d like to do, he could chat up his professors and find out about it.</p>
<p>However, if he’s happy being a kid, and doing the fun undergrad stuff, there is nothing wrong with the B.S. in whatever first.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for the responses. I think I understand a little better: He cannot get a master’s because he was not officially accepted into a master’s program. And for his purposes, getting a master’s may not even be necessary.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately he was not able to transfer any of his high school credits so he won’t be able to use them towards his degree. </p>
<p>His plan is to pursue a PhD, preferably at his current school. And as I understand it, there are opportunities to be accepted into a fully funded Master’s/PhD program. I was hoping that my son’s situation would allow us to save some money towards his undergrad degree. He is aware that there are certain course requirements (outside of his major) and is working towards fulfilling those. However, given that his major requirements will be met at the graduate level and he has proven proficiency in his major, can a school not allow exceptions in getting a bachelor’s degree without the exact number of credit hours? Basically, the ideal scenario would be that he get his bachelor’s in 3 years or less and then be accepted into a fully funded program. </p>
<p>Again, I understand that the best place to get these answers is at his school, but I am hesitant to get too involved. I am just wondering whether some on here know anything about these things. Thanks.</p>
<p>Thanks happy mom. I didn’t see your post before posting mine. So you suggest that my son talk with his professors? Would they be a better resource than his adviser? He is quite happy now, but would being in a PhD program prevent him from having the same fun experiences, especially if he stays at the same school? I would hate for him to miss out on the fun part.</p>
<p>Raneck, how important is it to “build up his application”? And what exactly are ways to do this?</p>
<p>The people he needs to be talking to are the people in his department. That would be his official department advisor, as well as the instructors for his grad level courses who are also currently acting as committee members for the grad students at that university. If there are ways around the system (whatever “the system” happens to be at that U), those people will be the ones who know.</p>
<p>If your son is truly interested in zipping through his undergrad program in 3 years, he needs to find out whether or not his U awards credit for CLEP or departmental exams. Those exams might be something he could prep for and take during a school break, and could wipe out some generic Gen Ed requirements.</p>
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<li> Strictly speaking, PhD students are not prohibited from having fun. But I don’t know many that have a lot of it, especially during their first few years in a program. It is (and should be) much more focused and demanding than an undergraduate curriculum, even for students who are advanced as undergraduates. Also, undergraduates generally don’t have obligations toward faculty members, other than generally to do assigned work in courses and to pay attention during class. Graduate students are, as a practical matter, indentured servants to key advisors for a period of years.</li>
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<p>So, no, graduate school will not be like a continuation of college, except with somebody else paying the cost.</p>
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<li> Why don’t you read the course catalog for your son’s college? Generally, all of the universities of which I am aware that have math departments like the one you describe offer combined BS/MS programs in which both degrees are awarded simultaneously. So your son can probably get formal recognition of the advanced work he is doing. And while the MS is not a requirement for admission to a PhD program, it can certainly signal that a candidate is operating at an advanced level and has more than the minimum degree of preparation. Furthermore, if he stays at the same university (and even, maybe, in some cases, at others, but not so likely), the MS may shorten the time to receiving a PhD. Finally, if he decides that he does not want to go into a PhD program immediately, the MS may help qualify him for jobs he would not get with a mere BS (although generally my impression is that people who hire math students out of college pay more attention to what they can do than what degrees they have).</li>
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<p>You might want to write the department head after getting all of the information you can about the program, requirements for a master’s, phd and where your son is, and get his input.</p>
<p>Where I went to school, there were a number of us taking graduate level courses, and if one did take enough of them, some sort of MA could be simultaneously earned or added easily in an extra year. But there are specific requirements. I took grad level courses in a language as I was fluent in it but never took enough to get anything out of it. That was just what my level happened to be. Caused a bit of a problem, believe it or not, in getting it to count for my foreign language requirement as the grad courses were not listed as fulfiling it and I did not take those UG courses that would. It was taken care of, but yes, it was a momentary pause.</p>
<p>PhD admissions generally look at a few things : GPA, GRE score (actually less important compared to the others), letters of recommendation, and applicable research. Now, I am more familiar with engineering disciplines, which expect a (relatively) significant amount of undergraduate involvement in current research. I am not sure how heavily this is weighted for pure math. Your son should look into undergraduate research opportunities at his school. He will also need letters of rec, which should come from professors he has had significant interaction with (done research, taken a small, high level course, etc.) You will generally need at least 3 letters.</p>
<p>Since you say he is interested in research at his current school, I should mention that there is something of a bias in academia against admitting bachelor’s students from one’s own school (academic incest).</p>
<p>I agree that it is entirely possible to be admitted to o PhD program without already having the bachelor’s, but that is rare. What is the ranking of the graduate program in math at his current school (ballpark ie. top 10, top 50, etc.)?</p>
<p>Not getting directly involved in this is good since it is significantly taboo for parents to be involved in grad school issues.</p>
<p>If he is in graduate level math courses now, that implies that he took college math courses while in high school, including upper division college math courses at a four year school. Those don’t transfer?</p>
<p>If it is the case that the current school is stingy with transfer credit, it would have been better to research the transfer credit policies last year before deciding where to matriculate if the student was seriously considering early graduation (whether for cost or academic reasons).</p>
<p>Yes ucbalumnus, we probably should have done a better job of researching credit transfer options. My kid just felt that his chosen school would give him the best education and we sent him off with our blessings, financial and otherwise. But now with his natural progression, and at the risk of sounding like a tightwad, we are looking at the current situation as a money saving opportunity. If there is any chance that we can save over $55,000, wouldn’t we be foolish to not look into it? I must add that we are not rushing in him any way. He is taking the lead in his education and we have been pleasantly surprised by this. It was he who tracked down the graduate professors and asked to be in their classes; we didn’t know that was even a possibility at his school.</p>
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<p>raneck, I have heard this about his school and it is concerning. Does this mean that he is at a disadvantage in PhD admissions because he is an undergrad there?</p>
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After a quick search, I see that the program is top 5. Would this play a part?</p>
<p>Honestly, if your son is a freshman at a top 5 university in math, and he’s only taking graduate courses, and he wants to be a math major, and ultimately to get a PhD in math . . . . you should back off, besides making certain he knows that you want him to explore graduating in three years. (And if that is going to be his plan, he probably needs to know that no later than next fall. He no doubt has an advisor, and he should talk to his advisor about it. He should also talk to the Director of Undergraduate Studies in the Math Department.) But he (and you) should also consider whether that might compromise his chances at a top graduate program – something he shouldn’t want to do.</p>
<p>Also, yes, there may well be some bias against keeping him at the same institution for his PhD, but that’s a bias that is overcome all the time in the case of a really top-notch student. And even if it isn’t overcome, the professors at his current university can pretty much assure his acceptance into an equivalent program if they support him with full enthusiasm.</p>
<p>Well, given what you have mentioned about the school (top 5, stingy with transfer credit for college courses taken while in high school, price), there are not that many possibilities… it does look like those schools and many of their peers emphasize the four year experience, with four years of tuition payments…</p>
<p>Graduating early likely means taking overload course schedules, although even then it may be discouraged (unlike at public universities which generously grant transfer credit and want students to graduate as quickly as possible to leave space for more students to come through).</p>
<p>I agree generally with #17, although if money is tighter than anticipated last year (despite being full or near-full pay at a school with likely very generous financial aid), that can be a problem that may force you and him to consider the early graduation possibilities. But if money is tighter than last year, you may want to see if financial aid is better next year and following years.</p>
<p>Yes, it could. Some departments don’t take their own students for graduate studies.</p>
<p>Unless he went to that school for a particular faculty member it’s unlikely it would best suit him, anyway. Grad school isn’t necessarily about going to the #1 ranked school for your specialty, but going where the best faculty member is that’s doing what you want. Every school towards the top of the rankings has its own strengths, and it all depends on what you’re interested in doing as to which school would be your top choice.</p>
<p>It’s also good to attend somewhere else so you meet new people and get exposed to different ideas. My current officemate went to our school for undergrad (one of the top in the country), and I really think regrets his decision. Attending a different school for grad really gives you a different perspective on your own education.</p>
<p>At some colleges, grad tuition is only 2/3rds the amount of the undergrad tuition. Therefore, if possible, it may be advantageous to be classified as a grad student as early as possible (which might be 4th year).</p>