"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 10

Applying to College
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<p>@Perizzaman</p>

<p>The problem goes way beyond mismatch. Cornel West talks about the culture of nihilism among black youth in a book he wrote over 20 years ago which is worse today.</p>

<p>If the problems were racism and poor schools and poverty, our problems could be overcome. My parents and grandparents overcame these blatant and deliberate problems as did many black families. Since the 60s however, we’ve seen the destruction of black families, exponential growth in dependence, triple digit increases in violence and drug abuse and the rise of, as Cornel West calls it, the nihilistic threat of urban culture.</p>

<p>In the absence of family, church and local structures to turn to, we turn to the federal government which is also the source of the rise of many of these issues-everything from the growing dependency, family breakdown and a misguided drug war are destroying communities while the self interest of many feeding off the public school system are willing to throw children off the educational Titanic for a few more moments afloat. This not unlike the willingness of the Whitehouse and Congress to go over a fiscal cliff vs solving the real problems of debt, deficits and outrageous spending.</p>

<p>Affirmative action is a device which pits us against one another so we take our eyes off the power structures which benefit from such a system.</p>

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<p>You should know that NMSF represent between 0.5% to 1% of a class on average. Since, I guessed 1 to 3 out of 700 that would be between 0.2% to 0.4%, that would be less than average. </p>

<p>It is only when you said 2 out of 320 (>0.5%) and said I guessed wrong, I was surprized and thought you were making the argument your school was above average. Later when I read more carefully what you said, I realized my initial guess was right and I have no idea why you said I guessed wrong.</p>

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<p>First of all, when I said they are ethical authors, it does not mean I agree with everything they are saying. Ethics is not a code word for they agree with me on everything. Although, why am I not surprized you would think it does? They are not whining about how affirmative action hurts Whites but trying to discuss how it could be damaging Blacks. This makes them ethical in my books. A process that never seems to cross your mind or we would be listening to you. This is why I keep saying you lack empathy. It has nothing to do with me riding a high horse or a low horse. </p>

<p>Mismatch makes the argument that one can expect about one standard deviation improvement from age 13 to 17. It suggests that these improvements continue but at a slower pace thru college. The book also suggests that these improvements can stop due to pressures of a mismatch. The book does not say that remedial work cannot be successful. It can be successful, within limits. Although, these limits vary from individual to individual. I do agree with them that, in most cases, the best time to make an impression is in elementary and middle school. However, I also think the authors are being too cautious about the benefits remedial work can have.</p>

<p>Finally, there is no doubt in my mind that the top kids at his middle school had the same potential as my kid to do just as well as him in college. My son was not heads and shoulders ahead of everyone else. A better school created better results for him. If these opportunites had been give to other top kids at his middle school they would have done equally well.Atleast some of them. They would also have probably done better than you, if they were in your school instead of the minority school they attended.I would like to see how you would have turned into a NMF at that school.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say you agreed with everything they said. I said you contradicted yourself. Earlier on, you stated your belief that “given opportunities in college,” the students you ran away from could have done as well as your son. Now, you’re saying “there is usually just a single standard deviation improvement between age 13 and 17.” So which is it? Of course, you did not answer that question. You never answer the questions which expose the holes in your thinking or how outdated your beliefs are.</p>

<p>When did I ever “whine about how [racial preferences] hurt whites”? Find me a direct quote where I did that. Here’s my prediction: you’re going to continue asserting that I “whine about how [racial preferences] hurt whites” while providing zero support.</p>

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<p>That does not illustrate in any way how the distinction between Black Americans and White Americans is arbitrary.</p>

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<p>We do. We take care of everyone their entire lives. Especially poor black people. The whole goal of “taking care” of them in education is to correct that. That’s what we’re discussing.</p>

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<p>If you do not think it’s the legacy of racism, what is it? What could possibly be the reason blacks in America are currently in such a bad lot?</p>

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<p>Okay, how bout this idea:</p>

<p>Black workers, statistically less likely than whites to have a college degree, suffered as the economy shed lowerskilled manufacturing and construction jobs.</p>

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<p>I don’t see you howling about it like you do day and night about Black preferences.</p>

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<p>Usually does not mean always. I believe that in rare incidences there can be exceptions, when people work hard. In my son’s case, his SAT score moved thru 4 standard deviations as he worked thru a mismatch after age 13. This is why I asked you what did you acheive at your average school? Since you refused to answer, I assume that you did nothing (no AP courses with 5s) beyond becoming a NMF.</p>

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<p>If you’re not satisfied with Bhagat Singh Thind as an example, how about Plessy v. Ferguson? Nobody knew Plessy was partially black until he said so and after he did, he was no longer considered “white.”</p>

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<p>So you’re saying that the training wheels come off for blacks at the age of…eighteen.</p>

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<p>Madaboutx gave a great answer: “In the absence of family, church and local structures to turn to, we turn to the federal government which is also the source of the rise of many of these issues-everything from the growing dependency, family breakdown and a misguided drug war are destroying communities.”</p>

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<p>You’re still not resolving the contradiction. Earlier, your belief was one of “anyone can do it.” Now, you are saying that “most cannot do it.” Which is it?</p>

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<p>You can believe whatever you want to believe. As is, you’ve struck out on each assumption:</p>

<ol>
<li>I am in high school.</li>
<li>I am in a “mainstream competitive high school.”</li>
<li>I attended an “above average” high school.</li>
<li>I was rejected by several elite universities.</li>
<li>I am white.</li>
<li>I am anti-black.</li>
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<p>It makes no difference to me if you want to strike out on #7: I took no AP exams / took some but did not score any 5s. Because my guess about you is still true: you ran away from a mostly non-white neighborhood and a mostly non-white school. I didn’t.</p>

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Did I say that?</p>

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<p>Okay, so the reason African Americans and not any other ethnic group generally suck when it comes to education is because of policies that the federal government instates that, in and of themselves, don’t target any specific racial group.</p>

<p>And yet these problems are impacting blacks the most because…?
(drumroll, please)</p>

<p>This is so dumb.</p>

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<p>Would you please be so kind as to reveal what other major event happened in 1941 that you believe caused the massive decline in the black poverty rate from 1940 to 1960?</p>

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<p>(That’s because he wasn’t white in the first place, dude.)</p>

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<p>Fabrizio, you seem to be working under the false assumption that your experience is the only valid one. You want to know how many white Americans refused to vote for Obama because his is black. I can’t give you a number, but I can tell you I know of several in my own neighborhood. Maybe it’s just my neighborhood.</p>

<p>You think if someone moved away from a lousy school, their experience doesn’t count. How about this, I chose to expose my children to all walks of life. When we lifed in a community that was 98% white, my preschool aged daughter attended a YWCA preschool in the nearby city, by our choice, because she would be exposed to a more diverse group of classmates, both by race and SES.</p>

<p>When we moved to Connecticut, we chose a diverse community. No, we didn’t move to the city, because we didn’t want to live in the city. However, our high school is about 60% white, 35 % Hispanic. We choose to send our youngest to a magnet school in New Haven which is predominantly Hispanic (note we are not Hispanic, but of mixed race), and where 95% of the students qualify for free or reduced price lunch. We believe in sending our children to the school which is the best fit for them. </p>

<p>When top schools like Harvard and Yale select their class each year, they have more than an adequate number of acceptable candidates of all races. They do not rank them and seleect the absolute top students because they are looking to form a balanced class. You argue that they shouldn’t consider race when balancing that class, but it’s OK for the to look at SES and gender - you won’t clarify why those classification are OK, but race is not. Race is relevant because they want to create an atmosphere where all their students feel welcome, and where there is a “critical mass” of different groups. </p>

<p>Perhaps because he “didn’t run away” you have never experienced an atmosphere like a school where everyone is different from you, where you feel isolated. perazziman’s son had the opportunity to attend a better school - should he have forgone that opportunity in the name of being true to his identity? I suppose all the black students who were admitted to Harvard and Yale should also forgo the opportunity? At my older daughter’s school I have witnessed people being surprised that black students do well - the AP classes are full of white kids, hardly any non-whites. The black students are generally not tracked into the honors and AP classes, because they are told they probably won’t do well in them. There is an assumption that they are inferior students, and unless someone convinces them otherwise, they believe it!</p>

<p>You have the experience of attending a school that was not predominantly white. We have children who have a different experience - living in a school that perhaps more closely reflects the demographics they will experience the rest of their lives. In what way is your experience more valid?</p>

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<p>The so called contradiction is your inablity to distinguish between an average and an exception to the average. I said they had the potential. I said atleast some of them. Them and they, meaning the top students such as my son, at the old school. I have no idea how many of them. On the other hand, nobody is going to believe that it just so happened that the one kid in 5,000 or 10,000 who was going to be an NMSF happend to transfer out to a school where kids regularly become NMSF.</p>

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<p>Actually, his mom (my wife) lost job in the middle of the 2009 recession and we had to relocate to a place closer to a new job. I don’t know if we would deliberately put our kid into a school where he would be so substantially mismatched and automatically disqualify for admission to the state flagship.</p>

<p>My point is that remedial education does work as it did in my son’s case. So, I see no reason why adcoms should not look for students with slightly lower SAT scores in ethnic schools like these.</p>

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<p><a href=“That’s%20because%20he%20wasn’t%20white%20in%20the%20first%20place,%20dude.”>quote</a>

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<p>Why wasn’t he?</p>

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<p>No, I am not. What I loathe is when people who live in proverbial glass houses throw rocks at me.</p>

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<p>No, I do not. I said repeatedly that I do not begrudge perazziman for wanting his son to have a better education. I would have done the same were I in his shoes. My displeasure was rooted in what I perceived as his overbearing self-righteousness about how he supposedly “understands” blacks whereas I don’t. If not for that, I would never have brought up the issue of the demographics of his son’s current school.</p>

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<p>I never said that they do or that they should. You assume that because I oppose racial preferences, I support such a “rank by stats and admit” procedure. I do not.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say it was OK to look at gender; I said I opposed gender preferences, which let’s be clear, in this day and age refers to preferences for males.</p>

<p>Given our nation’s sordid history of using racial classification for harm, why does it make sense to continue using it? Because this time it’s used “for good”?</p>

<p>I don’t see how you’re doing any good by using it. You say students need to “feel welcome.” That betrays a belief of tribalism among students, that students feel closer to people of “their” racial classification than to people with whom they share interests.</p>