"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 10

<p>A repeat of my post in thread 9:
It’s the summer before my freshman year in college, so I’ve let my concerns about affirmative action/racial preferences rest for a while, but something has triggered them again. Two quotes in particular seem incredible to me, and I just want to write my reactions to them, having googled them by memory. </p>

<p>First, this passage in “The Price of Admission” by Daniel Golden contains a quote from a high school counselor named Beverly Lenny, I believe.
The link to the page with the quote is: The Price of Admission: How America’s Ruling Class Buys Its Way Into Elite … - Daniel Golden - Google Books
Please bear with the author in the following passage, as I did, although the book as a whole is slightly awkward to read, containing multiple writing errors. I also can’t endorse the author’s attitude toward Asians. I find it forced and too general.
““What is the most difficult group to get? K-L, the Kim-Lee group. That group is the hardest to write recommendations for…You get a group of them. Every single child has had music lessons. Every single child succeeds well in math. Every single child has done community service in a hospital. Every child has done Chinese or Korean studies on Saturdays and is fluent in that language. You’re writing the same letter again and again.“
Lenny acknowledged that the failure of college admissions staffs and high school counselors to probe below these superficial similarities and get to know Asian American students as individuals may reflect unconscious racism. As a “white melting-pot woman,“ she said, it may be harder for her to communicate with Asian students than it would be for an Asian counselor.”
I would just like to point out that there is something very wrong with this picture. I do not know when going to Korean school or participating in the same activities as one’s peers has been a (major? Existent?) factor in a recommendation letter.
Did Lenny just say that she cannot probe below the superficial similarities she sees? That is, that she displays subconscious racism? Did she say that she doesn’t know her students as individuals?
I am ignoring faults in the book as a whole and venting about this passage alone. </p>

<p>A link to the news story with the second quote, “Some Asians’ college strategy: Don’t check ‘Asian’ - Yahoo! News,” is near the end of the first post in this thread.
“A college like Yale “could fill their entire freshman class twice over with qualified Asian students or white students or valedictorians,” says Rosita Fernandez-Rojo, a former college admissions officer who is now director of college counseling at Rye Country Day School outside of New York City.
But applicants are not ranked by results of a qualifications test, she says — "it’s a selection process."”
I want to get my thoughts together on this one so will not post them right now.</p>

<p>Surprisingly, I have had several questions concerning my race at various seminars that I held. My answer has always been the same: HUMAN!</p>

<p>Frankly, I have always been saddened that anyone would make distinctions about this either for college admission or on Census forms. Even publishing statistics about this by colleges seems wrong.</p>

<p>I am part African and part Asian. I have an Asian last name but my paternal grandmother is purely from Ghana. The rest of my family is Asian. Would I be considered an ORM or URM???</p>

<p>^It’s how you identify yourself. You can check off whatever box you want.</p>

<p>Heck, I could check off “Hispanic,” even though I don’t have a drop of Hispanic blood in me, *and it would be completely legal<a href="%5Bi%5Dmaybe%5B/i%5D%20not%20ethical,%20but%20that’s%20for%20you%20and%20your%20own%20conscience%20to%20decide;%20the%20college%20won’t%20ever%20find%20out%20unless%20they%20read%20your%20mind">/i</a>.</p>

<p>I think it may time to shift the discourse from legal to scientific. The slew of books coming mostly out of Stanford but some other places too, demonstrate, scientifically, that all of us are racists. Most of us just don’t know it.
The Hidden brain is one place to start and slate has a relatively easy to read article on the way brain science can demonstrate this:</p>

<p>[“The</a> Hidden Brain”: Behind your secret racism - Salon.com](<a href=“http://www.salon.com/2010/01/20/hidden_brain/]“The”>http://www.salon.com/2010/01/20/hidden_brain/)
The book in question is pretty good, but there are so many others saying the same thing it is hard to rank them.
The world of admission is far behind in knowing that this is the future. And to paraphrase William Gibson, the future is already here it is just unevenly distributed. Another book, the power of habit, cites one of the first court cases in which this form of evidence has been used. It did not work, but only by one vote. Remember scopes was a losing case for evolution.
This is all about to change. Maybe not in a year but it is coming. Darwin’s ideas were revolutionary. This particular scientific revolution is just as revolutionary but because we simply do not want to hear it, we don’t. This is exactly the point that the scientists are attempting to make. We are blind to our blindness and prejudices (a few still willfully embrace them but not many).</p>

<p>But this is all abstract. Here is a theoretical which may well be taken to the lab soon although the political consequences will be great.</p>

<p>Students who do not identify by race are in most cases easily identifiable by race if they are Asian. A Kim, Chen or Zhao cannot hide behind a box. And having read applications for so long I can tell you that reading a name means much more than reading a box. And what is more important, the very name triggers neurons that automatically, before consciousness, forces us (yes, free will is a myth, read Sam Harris) into certain biases. We have been primed (in the scientific sense, to make fast thinking the way to go, especially when reading applications (the term is from a Nobel winner Kahneman).
What I have just said is opaque and impenetrable perhaps to those unfamiliar with the field, but the science is there. The world will begin to catch up soon. And when it does the lawsuits will come flying. If we are biased against Asians in certain ways (and read the New York Magazine article on this phenomenon), then it does not matter if an application reader does not even know it. It happens anyway. And if this is true, then the 120 point difference in sat scores between Asians and others who get in to selective schools will no longer be attributable to a holistic reading process but to inherent bias.
I feel like the guy in the Big Short who saw the housing crash coming. But he was in a garage in California and no one listened. I sit in Charlottesville, with a whole lot of science and a whole lot of evidence. And a mission too.
If you want to learn more go to quora.com and search my name. There is some of what I have said here and a whole lot more. And there will be more to come there and on my blog.
I hope that his reply raises questions. That is what quora is about and that is the way I have worked with students over the years.</p>

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<p>If my last name sounds Asian and I check Black. Will HYP think that I am lying and will they red flag me?
Also, is it true that lying about your race will give the college the discretion of rescinding admission? I believe that if they do that, they could be sued with violating the 14th Amendment. Is this true?</p>

<p>When you apply you also sign a statement saying all the info is true so it is not a constitutional issue. They have all they need to turn you down. Now if you could get a nobel scientist in who would swear under oath that the concept of race is a cultural construction then judge Roberts and the rest might be pleased to read your case</p>

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<p>Read the sixth post of this thread. If you are concerned, remember that you can</p>

<ol>
<li>check both</li>
<li>check neither</li>
</ol>

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</p>

<p>If you were 1/64 Asian with an Asian last name, what else would you do?</p>

<p>We are talking about ethnic self-identification.</p>

<p>National origin is immutable. You are either born in country X or you aren’t. Similarly, race is immutable. Your ancestors were African or they weren’t. </p>

<p>However, ethnic self-identification is a cultural construct that is entirely up to you to determine.</p>

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</p>

<p>Absolutely. If an applicant is going to lie about this and identify with a community and ethnicity that they don’t have any true personal identification with, it will bleed through on other parts of their app. Unless they really take it to extremes and join “hispanic activities” in high school, though they’re a WASP or Asian (for instance), then perhaps they can sell it. But if you’re going to identify yourself as Hispanic and have not a trace of appreciation for the culture, be it in your essays or activities, than you might as well not even check the box at all. AdComs will know right away and could even see you as a disingenuous person. As we all know, colleges do not like dishonest people.</p>

<p>All I can say is embrace who you are. If you’re lying on your app to make a longshot closer to your grasp, that one factor is probably not going to change much. Check race, don’t check your race, say you’re an ethnicity that you’re really not. It’s all legal, but do you want to be lying to yourself?</p>

<p>Also, great post, tokenadult! This is an invaluable thread!</p>

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<p>In this regard, I don’t have a very high opinion of adcoms. The whole notion of preferences for Hispanics is absurd. On paper, you think you’re getting students whose ancestry is indigenous or extensively mixed. In reality, unconditionally, most Hispanics in the U.S. are white ([Source</a>, page 6](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf]Source”>http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf)), and due to the legacies of Spanish colonialism, those are also the Hispanics most likely to come from wealthy and/or well-educated families (i.e. the ones who least “need” preferences).</p>

<p>My parents immigrated from West Africa. </p>

<p>I graduated high school as a ‘hispanic’, on my transcript, student file papers, and all.</p>

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<p>Eh… I’m fairly sure not even many Hispanic/Blacks have their racial heritage “bleed” through the app.</p>

<p>The point is that adcom officers are not going to “assume you’re lying” just because your name “doesn’t sound Hispanic” even though you checked off the Hispanic box.</p>

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My point is that you cannot tell if someone is lying to themselves, since it is ethnic self-identification. Meaning that their ethnicity is to be determined by them and them alone, NOT to be second-guessed by some outside observer like you who knows nothing about that person’s inner identity.</p>

<p>Hey Token!</p>

<p>I had a specific question regarding “sub-races”.</p>

<p>As you can see on the common app - along with most college applications - not only do they ask for your race, but for you to describe your race on the line below. My question is “Do colleges pay attention to that little line? Do they look beyond the broad categories? Or do they just look to see what you’ve checked and ignore your ethnicity?”</p>

<p>For example, I’m Sri Lankan, and so I’m considered Asian. However, I identify far more as a Sri Lankan than as an Asian. In my case, my specific ethnicity means a lot more to me than the all-encompassing term “Asian.”</p>

<p>I’m also part white, which I identify as as well.</p>

<p>If there was a choice to identify as “Multi-Racial/Bi-Racial” I’d pick it in a heartbeat, because, in all honesty, I see myself as bi-racial above everything.</p>

<p>Ehh…I’m getting off topic. Anyway, to reiterate, my question is “Do colleges pay attention to a specific ethnicity that a person identifies (On the line underneath race)?”</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>I agree - I am part Mongolian and part Gypsy, both of which make me Asian, but I don’t identify with being Asian except by necessity.</p>

<p>I wish there was a multi-racial category. My children are European, Asian, and African.</p>

<p>I also have seen forms that have Indian, Chinese, and Japanese listed, then no “other Asian” listed as if no other Asian countries exist.</p>

<p>You can check off “other” and write “Mixed”</p>

<p>As before, there is no “other” box on the college application forms (which have to follow the federal regulations mentioned in the first post above and one of the other first few posts). You either check one or more of the “race” checkboxes provided, or you check none at all. </p>

<p>A question recently posted asked if colleges regard answers to subcategories that show up in a detailed view of “race” categories on the Common Application or on some college applications, and my guess on that issue is yes, the reason those subcategories appear on some application forms is that some colleges think they are meaningful for making admission decisions. How much weight colleges apply to each subcategory with what relationship to other applicant characteristics is usually not published information, and surely varies from college to college and perhaps also varies from year to year (depending, for example, on who else is applying that year). If you think your own personal background is unusual and interesting and would add value to the entering class of a college to which you are applying, you may as well mention it. If you think your own ethnic or national origin heritage is not the most persuasive aspect of your application, emphasize something else. Every applicant should tell the truth, and colleges do have some means for checking what applicants say, but all applicants are allowed to put their best foot forward while applying. </p>

<p>Good luck to everyone applying in the next admission season.</p>

<p>Very few colleges give you the option to check two races which is crazy. Dartmouth, for example, specifically asks your race, and they tell you that they are looking for an ethnically diverse population, so when they ask, it helps them and gives people a chance for scholarship opportunities. To say you are either white or black or native american or pacific islander on some apps is unfair to latinos. They completely leave them off on some of the college apps. If you are white and hispanic (my mom is from spain) then you should be able to check both. Some colleges will say hispanic including spain. The whole thing is ridiculous. It’s 2012 and why should someone get a scholarship opportunity because of their color/race? IF YOU ARE POOR, yes, by all means, and that means WHITE people too. Do you know how many poor white people there are in the inner cities and Appalachia? And how many super wealthy african americans there are in affluent areas like CA, NY, NJ and CT? It’s all absurd and should be solely based on income. That’s just my two cents. I have seen people who are blond hair blue-eyed and they will check all 4 boxes on the race question. They lie just to boost their chances of getting in. My friend is beautiful. She has black hair and freckles and everyone thinks she is Irish and perhaps spanish. Her mother is african american mother and her father is dutch/irish. No one would EVER guess it. It’s just plain silly what is going on today. This is from Dartmouth’s website on their mailing list questionnaire: </p>

<p>“We are interested in drawing together a community of students that collectively represents as wide a spectrum of backgrounds, perspectives and interests as possible. Among a wide array of recruitment activities, admissions officers, students and alumni participate in the recruitment of prospective students of color. If you choose to identify yourself as a member of an underrepresented minority group, it will allow us to provide you with supplemental information and to pass your name on to student and alumni groups that may be sponsoring events of interest to you.”</p>

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<p>Untrue. All colleges that follow the federal regulation, which should be every one of them, allow students to choose one or more “race” categories (or none at all, by declining to answer the question). This is controlled by the federal regulation mentioned in the first post of this thread. The Common Application, which Dartmouth and hundreds of other colleges use, follows the federal regulation in its structure by making clear that the Hispanic/Latino ethnicity question is optional and that the following race question, which lists all the federal categories, is also optional. It suggests to applicants, “(Check one or more and describe your background.)” Very clearly, any college that allows you to use the Common Application allows you to self-report two or three or all of the federally defined “race” categories, as you wish. </p>

<p>If colleges are trying to recruit students in advance with questionnaires for targeting recruitment, those questionnaires probably have to meet the same federal regulation. (This would be an interesting issue to check.) Responding to a recruiting questionnaire is not any required part of the application process.</p>