<p>I know you’ve already talked about this, but I still feel like I should ask.</p>
<p>I know “technically” (at least according to college apps) Pakistani is considered Asian and in the past I have identified myself as Asian (in other forms that I’ve filled out, there was “Middle Eastern” option). But now that I’ve started signing up for mailing lists for various colleges, I’ve seen the “Middle Eastern” option. My parents and I were all born in Pakistan (however we moved and got U.S. citizenship 12 yrs ago) and my grandparents were born in “India” since Pakistan didn’t exist back then. I was wanting to know if you thought it would be dishonest to identify myself as both Asian and Middle Eastern rather than just Asian on college apps and such.</p>
<p>GMtplus7, there’s no need to get angry over something that doesn’t really affect you. If you actually read and comprehended my entire post maybe you’d understand that I’m aware that Pakistan is geographically considered part of “Asia.”
Thank you for your two cents, though. I know perfectly well how to justify my choice (even though I highly doubt it will challenged) based on the earlier posts on this thread.</p>
<p>Well, based on the earlier posts of this thread, you can’t justify identifying as Middle Eastern unless you want to claim you’re a Parsi / Irani. If you’re concerned about the admissions process, I advise you to decline self-identification.</p>
<p>Chill out. I was not being angry. When I responded I had only read your latest post which made no mention that u were of Middle Eastern ETHNICITY. I am aware that many Pakistanis feel a CULTURAL kinship to the ME because of religion, but cultural affinity does not alter one’s inherent ethnicity. </p>
<p>I stated fact. You CAN check whichever box u desire. Just be prepared to justify it if u are challenged, because if it is found that an applicant has willfully misrepresented him/herself, then it can be grounds for having admission recinded.</p>
<p>If u are not prepared to get responses that support your preconceived desired answer, then don’t be posing your questions online. NOW I am angry.</p>
<p>I never really had any preconceived desired answer; I was just wondering if it was appropriate. My second post was made after I read through more of the forum. The region where I’m from is, in general, more similar to Afghanistan than India. Sorry if that was crucial information.
Aw, I’m sorry I upset you, though.</p>
<p>@fabrizio, there’s no point in leaving it blank since other places on my college apps will allude to it (essays, personal statements, etc.)</p>
<p>If an ethnic Chinese is a citizen of France and resides in South Africa, that person still checks the Asian box for ethnicity, not the European/White nor African/Black box.</p>
<p>I’m aware of that. However, there’s a difference between national origin and race and ethnicity. If my ancestors (from at least three generations before) were not from Pakistan or India and were “ethnically” Middle Eastern, then it would make sense for me to check both boxes. </p>
<p>I was just initially confused since all of my grandparents and both of my parents were born in the Indian subcontinent while all of my great-grandparents were not.</p>
<p>I think I understand it better now. Thanks for your responses.</p>
<p>I firmly believe that considering race in college admissions is wrong. I believe that it is an injustice. I am partly black, so affirmative action would have helped me. But at the same time, I realize that it is an injustice. And I will actively oppose injustice. </p>
<p>It seems that every time I protest this injustice somebody calls me out as a whiner. Do they also think that the Freedom Riders of the 1960s were whiners? Were the French revolutionaries whiners? Were the Jews who protested the Dreyfus Affair simply whiners? Obviously, you can’t compare any of these large-scale events to affirmative action. But injustice is still injustice, and for some reason, people cannot tolerate anybody who actively opposes the consideration of race in college admissions. People are afraid to speak out against this injustice because they will be called whiners. It’s just not politically correct. </p>
<p>This fall, I will attend Yale. I detailed in one of my other posts my story. I am incredibly poor. I worked hard and, with a little bit of luck, made it to an outstanding college. I believe that affirmative action should only be extended to low-income students. Selecting less academically-qualified applicants on the basis of race is an injustice.</p>
<p>I post a lot about this. I want to know why I am called a whiner for trying to fight what I and millions of other Americans perceive as injustice.</p>
<p>Here’s the deal, Jon: you have a legitimate argument to make, but you don’t usually make it. Philosophically, at least, it’s a really good idea to say that if you’re black, but your dad’s a university dean and your mom’s a dentist, you don’t need special consideration in college admissions, but if you are white and growing up in Appalachia, you might. Practically, however, that’s tough to do; after all, an essential element of need-blind admissions is that the admissions office shouldn’t know who’s rich, who’s securely middle-class and who’s one missed paycheck away from homelessness. And at the high-end colleges you tend to write about, need-blind admissions is the norm. So race is sometimes used as an imperfect proxy for something we might better call “economic and social privilege.” I wish there were a better proxy, too.</p>
<p>JWS: If I want my incoming freshman class of twenty to be composed of science geniuses, track stars, incredible theater people, some international high performers, top women’s basketballers and high performing URMs – why shouldn’t I go out and get the best ones possible to fill those niches which I determine will benefit everyone? If I allocate my slots in a ratio of 10:2:3:2:1:2 in advance (yep – talking about goals or “quotas” here) for planning purposes – is there something wrong with that?</p>
<p>Come deadline time, I get many apps but those deemed “sufficient” end up being </p>
<p>At the end, I fill my 20 seats with exactly the ratio I want except for one unfilled theater person. I extend another offer to a science kid.</p>
<p>You know what? My Track Star did not TAKE away a slot from one of those 89 eventually rejected science students or 48 international applicants. They were never theirs to begin with. That was determined by me before the first application was accepted.</p>
<p>Most attacks on Affirm action hinge on the fact that preferences or set-asides somehow skew “those who deserve it the most”. In my hypothetical, it’s a good bet that the avg metrics (SAT/ACT/GPA) of the science applicants probably was higher than those of the two theater people. But again, I never had to accept someone who didn’t meet a minimum threshold. But comparing avg metrics between groups is not my concern. I’ve derived my proper mix that has brought me consistent success.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, my recipe for what I deem as a beneficial mix is achieved. This is called “category” admissions. You wanna know who the accepted URMs kept out? less qualified URMs. Not science kids, not internationals. They never were in the running for those two spots. Period</p>
<p>In Jon’s defense (and I cannot believe I just said that), that comprehensive explanation doesn’t address the contention that the slots designated URM would be better designated “economically or academically or socially disadvantaged.”</p>
<p>Good to see someone with admissions experience basically admitting that there are quotas involved.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Who are these “less qualified” "URM"s, really? I should not draw too strong a conclusion from a univariate graph. But I wonder whether the reason why the relationship between a school’s average SAT score and the percentage of black students is [U-shaped</a> (page 7)](<a href=“http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/knewmin0709.pdf]U-shaped”>http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/knewmin0709.pdf) is because the “elite” schools (as proxied by average SAT score) poach black students who in the absence of racial preferences would have ended up at schools with average SAT scores in the 1200-1300 (out of 1600) range.</p>
<p>And before the inevitable “SAT isn’t everything” remark comes, yes, I’m well aware of that. I’m not saying that it is or that it should be. All I’m saying is that if you plot schools’ average SAT score with schools’ percentage of black students, you get a U-shaped curve.</p>
<p>fabrizio: I think you were the one who turned me onto the fact that there was surprising lack of variation among targeted subgroups (including URMs) for many schools. I would say it’s an open “secret” that informal goals or quotas occur. BTW: i’m an alum recruiter/interviewer – not an “insider” per se.</p>
<p>And the fact that high metric URMs can be poached and perhaps concentrated in a few schools is again, not up for question. It’s fallout? Dunno. We venture into the realm of minority disparities in SAT/ACT – another can o worms</p>
<p>Good news for Pakistanis. I’m Pakistani and got a speeding ticket, and on the ticket the officer marked that I was Middle Eastern and not Asian. Yippee :)</p>
<p>(Ticket got dismissed for anyone who cares)</p>
<p>In practice, it probably is not too hard to tell the applicant’s SES based on address, high school, types of extracurriculars, etc. if an admissions reader really wants to know. Plus, applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds may write essays about overcoming adverse conditions and the like.</p>
<p>Although it is hard to discern income without the FAFSA, there are some clues on commonapp with respect to what the parents do and their background since it asks for information on education, profession and employers name. Add that to the home address and it is not hard to figure out SES.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree. I can see a few reasons, however, why a college that identifies itself as need-blind wouldn’t do those things. Not least of those reasons, “‘Need-Blind’ Ivies Use Applicants’ Biographical Information to Determine Socioeconomic Status” is a headline they simply don’t want to see in the New York Times.</p>
<p>I am only a Freshman in high school but Stanford is undoubtedly my dream school. However, I feel like I have a poor chance of making the cut with my current stats. My mother also insists schools look and consider ethnicity. Since I am Asian, I’m curious too. Any Stanford attendees or alumni care to give me some information on how valid that is?</p>
<p>I’d like to point out that unlike most, science and math are not my strengths. Not that I don’t do well, they are just not a natural talent. Meanwhile, I excel in creative writing (won first in state poetry 2 years in a row) and love music, but I’m not outstanding in any way. I don’t do sports. Since I don’t fit the usual mold for my ethnicity, will this help ir hurt me? </p>
<p>(This post is not meant to be offensive in any way nor suggestive of racism. Just clarification on the whole bias thing I’ve heard about. I want to know the truth.)</p>