Ideally, a the demographics of a college should match that of its country. Right now, Harvard’s demographics aren’t incredibly skewed. If 98% of the students were either white or asian, then I can guarentee you that a lot of people will consider Harvard to be “too white,” “too Asian,” or elitest. Top colleges have enough top students already, so they can afford not admitting more Asians.</p>
<p>Also, it is unfair to compare the situation with Asians with that of the Jews eighty years ago. Asians are not actively discriminated against. The reason so many otherwise-qualified Asians get rejected is because there aren’t enough spots for them!</p>
<p>I never said that the race policy at top colleges is fair. Of course it isn’t. It completely screws over lower income Asians and Asians whose families were not college educated. If your parents forced you to study for the SAT, however, you have no reason to complain. Colleges want to make sure that their students will be successful without being nagged 24/7. Of course, it is not fair that you had to study so much and still might not get into your dream school, but the answer is not to complain about college admissions. Life isn’t fair, and the best revenge is a life well lived.</p>
<p>What would have to be case for your ideal to be reality? And why does a discrepancy between your ideal and reality justify artificial “balancing”?</p>
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<p>What makes you think Harvard would be 98% white or Asian in the absence of racial preferences? Can you name any selective university that is 98% white or Asian? If that’s an unfair question, how about any university, selective or not?</p>
<p>When your reasoning for limiting Asian admissions is exactly the same as the “reasoning” President Lowell used eighty years ago to justify limiting Jewish admissions, I see nothing unfair in the comparison.</p>
<p>I am in NO way saying that all Asians should have a single viewpoint on the use of racial classification in admissions. That goes against my belief in the supremacy of the individual over the “group.” But even so, I always find it sad when Asians are the ones resurrecting Lowell-esque arguments to support negative action.</p>
<p>Could you explain to me how Asians are not discriminated against? </p>
<p>One example is the Asian kid with perfect grades and a 2400 SAT. Immediately, people on this site and possibly in college admissions conclude that he/she is a robot, at least subconsciously. </p>
<p>Isn’t stereotyping a form of discrimination?</p>
<p>Asian stereotyping extends past college. In engineering, medicine, or tech fields, this stereotype is beneficial for Asians. But in business, law, and especially politics, I think Asians face a major disadvantage.</p>
<p>I am not sure whether I disagree with AA, but I do disagree with the idea that Asians don’t face discrimination. I grew up in the Deep South. And by the way, racists hate Asians just as much as Blacks. I’ve been called plenty of names.</p>
Why is that ideal? It is completely arbitrary to say “oh, the % proportions of ethnicities should match that of the country.” What is the benefit of doing so? What is the drawback if the proportions/demographics do not match the country</p>
<p>Furthermore, using the word “dominating” is clearly the wrong word to use.
Harvard is only 17% Asian and 44% White. What would be so wrong with a school that is, say, 30% Asian?</p>
Colleges want their students to prepare for the real world. You will most likely have to interact with different races in the future, and being around different people makes you more open minded.</p>
<p>Obviously 98% was hyperbole. A few liberal arts colleges (like Middlebury) are very white, but no selective colleges are extremely skewed because they care about maintaining a race balance. If URMs have a tougher time getting into top colleges, fewer would apply, creating a positive feedback loop.</p>
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<p>Wheras maintaining a white student body cannot be justified, maintaining diversity (at the expense of Asians) can. Colleges are obviously self-interested and they have no incentive to admit everyone who is most qualified. I never said that I completely agree with them, but colleges don’t really have a choice.</p>
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Sadly, Asians are discriminated against during the college admissions process. Unconscious stereotypes are not something easily changed, however. Trying to draw attention to the issue will only make people more defensive.</p>
<p>To be fair to the adcoms, many Asians are forced to succeed in high school by their parents and would not be as successful in college as other students. There is no way to tell whether someone scored 2400 by their own merit or by their parent’s.</p>
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There isn’t anything wrong with a school that is 30% Asian, but there is something wrong with a school with few URMs.</p>
<p>Shouldn’t freshmen have interacted with people of different racial classifications in the eighteen years they lived before entering college? And are you saying that a white person and a black person are automatically different because one is white and the other is black?</p>
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<p>This is interesting from my perspective. “Tougher” is a relative term; its use implies a comparison with some base or benchmark. You have defined the status quo, in which there are racial preferences for so-called “underrepresented” minorities, as the benchmark. Therefore, a deviation from the status quo in which racial preferences are abolished would result in a system where it is “tougher” for "URM"s to get into top colleges.</p>
<p>But you are implicitly stating that "URM"s currently have an easier time getting into top colleges than non-"URM"s because of the preferences. Why should "URM"s have an easier time?</p>
<p>“Many Asians are forced to succeed in high school by their parents and would not be as successful in college as other students. There is no way to tell whether someone scored 2400 by their own merit or by their parent’s.”</p>
<p>First, I see no reason why the Asian kid wouldn’t be as successful in college as other students. In fact, I think he/she is likely to be more successful in college since he/she is better prepared for higher expectations. </p>
<p>Second, that is extremely stereotypical. I for one did not have any help from parents or any type of tutoring. There are many, many exceptions to your example. That style of thinking is discriminatory towards individuals.</p>
<p>Third: If we translate your comment for another race…</p>
<p>"“Many Blacks are forced to succeed in basketball by their parents and would not be as successful in basketball as other students. There is no way to tell whether someone made Varsity by their own merit or by their parent’s.”</p>
<p>Therefore, the College Athletics and Recruiting should be balanced for more diversity. </p>
<p>That’s an extreme example. I am actually fine with AA. I am annoyed with some of WhaleWhale’s justifications though, which seem kind of discriminatory to me.</p>
<p>My own argument is irrelevant since all the URM students I see attending elite schools are more than qualified. I have no problem with that.</p>
<p>I do have a problem when the URM status is used as an excuse. Like the thread on CC I saw a few months back, where a URM girl decided not to retake the SAT since she thought she was hooked, and other posters supported her decision. And she admitted she did not study, so she could have done much better. That kind of ticked me off.</p>
<p>For example to attend stanford, an average asian would need 2350 sat score, a URM would only need 1850 BECAUSe the school needs more URMS so they go easier than ORMS like whites and asians.</p>
<p>your basketball team needs their team to practice in order to win their 150th league victory. your teacher pretends to have lost his never turned in homework and has his friend, a TA grade the test and purposely doesnt double chekc the grades.</p>
<p>In reply to many questions that came in during my recent business trip, ALL college applicants are allowed to decline to answer “race” or ethnicity questions. Those questions are optional for applicants, and many colleges report quite a few enrolled students to the federal government as “race/ethnicity unknown.” Colleges are required to ask, but neither applicants nor enrolled students are required to tell once they are college age. You can leave the questions blank. That’s not only a good idea, it’s the law. See the FAQ posts (the first several posts of this thread) for more details and links to official information on the subject from the federal government, from colleges, and from associations of college officers. </p>
<p>Good luck to all of you on your applications. Be sure to read the FAQ posts in this thread in detail if you still have questions. That’s not too much reading to expect of someone who desires to get into a good college and thrive there.</p>
<p>Not everyone grew up in a diverse community. Even some people who did haven’t actually worked with people with different backgrounds. Also, many important opinions are formed in college, so it doesn’t really matter if someone regular interacted with different types of people the first 18 years of their life.</p>
<p>I don’t think people understand the points I am trying to make. I haven’t said anything is fair. I’m only pointing out the reality that college adcoms pretty much have to act the way they do.</p>
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<p>Since you didn’t grow up with parents who forced you to score a 2300+, you can’t really understand what I mean. I did, and I’m friends with many Asians whose parents are even more crazy than mine (mine only cared about the SAT I).</p>
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Read my post again. I agree. I believe that admissions officers try to keep applicants from racial stereotypes, but it’s difficult to control one’s own subconscious.</p>
<p>Also, your athlete analogy fails because your coach will always be there to push you and yell at you if you aren’t trying your hardest. Nobody is there to force you to study for a test or turn in homework as long as if you maintain a passing grade.</p>
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<li><p>You don’t have to have grown up in a “diverse community” to have interacted with people of other racial classifications. That is an extremely low bar to cross in today’s America.</p></li>
<li><p>Your second point potentially applies to colleges as well. How do you know that on campus, students actually “work with people from different backgrounds”?</p></li>
<li><p>Are you saying that I could be the most racist and prejudiced eighteen-year-old alive, but a mere four years of college will make me see the light and undo all of my hate?</p></li>
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<p>And you’re contradicting yourself here. Earlier, you said it was important for colleges to use racial preferences so that their students could be “prepared for the real world.” Now you’re saying that racial classification doesn’t matter; the college experience itself is enough to shape students’ life opinions.</p>
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<p>So you’re defending the system as it is and saying that it’s immutable. Is that really what you want to do?</p>
<p>I support AA because I think it’s important to have different cultures and ideologies represented in a classroom as well as on a college campus. No, I’m not saying that there’s any blatant difference between a white person and a Hispanic person. But when it comes down to a classroom discussion, the Hispanic person may have something different to add to the discussion that is based on their cultural background. For example, I’m the only Bangladeshi in my US Government class. I’m also the only Muslim. When we have discussions in the classroom, I find that I often have differing viewpoints than the rest of my classmates BECAUSE of the culture and the religon in I was raised and BECAUSE I have seen more of the world than my fellow classmates have. As a result, the classroom discussion becomes more enlightening for all of the students. This discussion now allows me to step into the shoes of someone who was raised differently than I, and the other students in my classroom are more understanding and tolerant of WHY I was raised to have the viewpoint that I have.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that all whites have the same viewpoints and all Hispanics have the same viewpoints and all Asians have the same viewpoints and there’s no overlap at all. But I am saying that two people whose parents are from different countries are MORE LIKELY to have differing viewpoints than two people whose parents were raised in the same country and in the same religion. The only way to become tolerant and understanding of another person’s viewpoint is to step into their shoes – and a classroom discussion with people from different backgrounds and with different beliefs allows us to do that. </p>
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe there’s a place right underneath the Ethnic Self-Identification box where you can explain/add additional comments. So if you mention that you’re grandmother is from Ghana, I believe you’ll be fine. I remember reading an article that featured a senior who was White but had one grandparent who was Asian – he checked off both boxes and was accepted. That same article talked about a student who was going to check off that he was Hispanic and Asian because one grandparent was Hispanic.</p>
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<li><p>If you grew up in a small town without black people, you are inevitably going to feel awkward around black people until you get used to living around them for a while.</p></li>
<li><p>My point was that you don’t really work together in high school, at least where I live.</p></li>
<li><p>This doesn’t really make sense. Of course you would still be racist after 4 years, but you would definitely be either more open minded than before or dead.</p></li>
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<p>I’m not contradicting myself at all. The reason the college experience shapes people’s opinions is that students are exposed to people who are different from themselves.</p>
<p>I’m not defending it because it’s immutable. I’m defending it because if top colleges suddenly decided to remove the system, they would not be providing the best education possible to their students. They also risk ****ing off URMs as well.</p>
<p>That’s not inevitable at all. I finished most of my K-12 education in rural South Georgia, and there were very few Asian students in both my middle and my high school. But my schools were quite balanced with respect to whites and blacks overall.</p>
<p>According to you, all (or at least most) of my non-Asian classmates should have felt awkward around me. That was not the case. A few (both white and black) certainly made a big deal of my racial classification and weren’t afraid to let me know what they thought. Everyone else didn’t care or simply didn’t let me know.</p>
<p>But beyond my anecdote, your statement simply stereotypes people who grew up in small towns without black neighbors. You’re assuming that they’re prejudiced with no evidence.</p>
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<p>Then you don’t know that people will “really” work together in college if you aren’t there yet. But I don’t want to patronize you; let’s think about the implications of what you’re saying. Your argument is that colleges need to engage in racial preferences because they need to create an environment where people of different racial classifications can come and work together.</p>
<p>But you yourself admit that having a “diverse” set of racial classifications is not a sufficient condition for interaction at the community or high school level. You can only say that college is “different,” though for you, that is an assumption. You could try to explain why you think it would be different, but your explanation would have to rely on what you imagine college is like.</p>
<p>Then you have to withdraw what you wrote earlier: whether I have interacted with people of other racial classifications in the eighteen years that I lived before entering college matters.</p>
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<p>But you don’t know that, as I wrote to you in my previous reply, because you haven’t experienced it yet. You’re assuming that that’s the case based on what you think college is (or should be) like.</p>
<p>Again, though, I don’t want to come across as patronizing or condescending. So let’s once more think about what you’re saying. “People who are different from themselves.” Are you saying that in high school, everybody is the same? None of your classmates is different from you? When are students ever not exposed to students who are different from themselves?</p>
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<p>Why wouldn’t they be providing the “best education possible”? And who cares if they irk "URM"s? And are you saying that "URM"s will only be satisfied if they receive preferential treatment in the admissions process?</p>
<p>I respect that you were very careful in your wording, but John McWhorter’s critique of your rationale for racial preferences still holds: why can’t professors simply keep a notebook of various “perspectives by ethnicity or racial classification?”</p>