"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 10

Applying to College
1001

<p>

Giving preference to athletes has nothing to do with exemplary performance in an academic endeavor - it’s about sports. May believe it is wrong for schools to show preference to athletes.

That only works when you have the opportunity to get to know those people. If the vast majority of people you know look like you, then you have a much broader range of people who you know have something in common with you. Striking up a conversation with someone who looks like you is no more shallow than doing so because the person is in a class with you. It may be unreasonable for a black student to assume that all the white students around him this less of him, as much as it is for a white student to assume he doesn’t belong, but it is a bias based on experience. If you’ve never been the only Black, Hispanic or female student in a given class, perhaps it is an experience you don’t understand, and hence you pass off the desire to have other similar people around you as shallow.</p>

1002

<p>@ sosomenza</p>

<p>so you have no proof at all.</p>

1003

<p>

Fabrizio, I what I pointed out was [bold]current descrimination[/bold] on which preferences are based. That’s a separate issue from the whining about whose ancestors faced discrimination. Almost all of us have ancestors who faced discrimination, and yes, some were more oppressed than others. That was to put into context the idea that some really are whining about something that is current of little importance.</p>

<p>You don’t think that preferences should be granted based on ancestry - that’s fine. But what about preferences based on current discrimination, which is based on ancestry? Some seem to think that the fact that we elected a black man as President, that it means there is no more race-based discrimination. I wish it were true.</p>

1004

<p>As far as I know, preferences have nothing to do with current or past discrimination. If there is current discrimination, it is perceived as opposed to legal since there would be lawsuits about it. Driving while black is profiling due to crime stats and not being shown a 40k purse in Switzerland is more like economic although everything is claimed to be racial.</p>

<p>The reason current preferences in top schools exist is because the schools have a philosophy to ensure participation from all races with the intention that the students have a better understanding of society as a whole and become better leaders (the top schools do think they are producing all the leaders). To some extent that is true since many of the upcoming minority politicians (they seem more high profile and visible than other fields) seem to have gone to top schools. Julian Castro, Cory Booker, Deval Patrick, Michael Tubbs (<a href=“Youngest-ever City Council Member of Stockton: Michael Tubbs at TEDxStanford - YouTube”>Youngest-ever City Council Member of Stockton: Michael Tubbs at TEDxStanford - YouTube) fit this profile. </p>

<p>So when we go around in circles claiming top schools are discriminating, of course they are. They choose which students they want to educate based on the student’s future potential as opposed their SAT score. Their goals are truly different from just imparting an education.</p>

1005

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</p>

<p>Still want to pretend. No problem. Let’s go down to 37 with Maryland. [The</a> University of Maryland at College Park](<a href=“https://www.irpa.umd.edu/cds/CDS_2012-2013.xlsx]The”>https://www.irpa.umd.edu/cds/CDS_2012-2013.xlsx), Maryland’s flaghsip, considers racial/ethnic status. [The</a> University of Maryland, Baltimore County](<a href=“http://oir.umbc.edu/files/2013/06/CDS_2012-2013-.pdf]The”>http://oir.umbc.edu/files/2013/06/CDS_2012-2013-.pdf), a T3 state school, does not consider racial/ethnic status.</p>

<p>Let’s go down to 36 with Indiana. [Indiana</a> University Bloomington](<a href=“http://www.iu.edu/~uirr/reports/compliance/cds/?inst=IUBLA&section=C&year=2012]Indiana”>http://www.iu.edu/~uirr/reports/compliance/cds/?inst=IUBLA&section=C&year=2012), Indiana’s flagship, considers racial/ethnic status. [Indiana</a> University East](<a href=“http://www.indiana.edu/~upira/reports/compliance/doc/common_dataset/CDS_2009/IUE_2009.pdf]Indiana”>http://www.indiana.edu/~upira/reports/compliance/doc/common_dataset/CDS_2009/IUE_2009.pdf), a T3 state school, does not consider racial/ethnic status.</p>

<p>35 more states. Would you like to keep going, or are you finally prepared to admit that you’ve no clue what you’re talking about? Either’s fine with me.</p>

1006

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<p>That is why I said “a specific academic or extracurricular endeavor.” Once again, I am not opposed to considering excellence in extracurriculars in selective admissions.</p>

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<p>But that commonality is shallow: group membership based on racial / ethnic classification. Just because someone is an American of Asian ancestry doesn’t mean we share the same interests, hobbies, and passions. I’m going to become friends much more easily (and do) with a black classmate who shares my taste in music, for example, than an Asian classmate who finds my political views repulsive.</p>

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<p>I would say that striking up a conversation based on shared racial classification is more shallow than doing so because of taking a class together. Nonetheless, I respect your difference of opinion.</p>

<p>Of course I have never been the "only Black, Hispanic or female student in a given class; I am none of those. But I have been the only Asian student in a given class, and in fact, that was how a large chunk of my middle and high school classes were like.</p>

1007

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</p>

<p>Following up on texaspg’s comment, racial preferences are permissible for one reason, and one reason only: “diversity.” Addressing discrimination, current or historic, has never been accepted by the Supreme Court as a Constitutional rationale for racial preferences.</p>

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<p>If you want to argue this, then Asians should receive racial preferences. Again, are you sure this is what you want to say?</p>

<p>I’ve never said that because Obama is a two-term President, racism is extinct. Of course not. But there’s a flip side to this: you can’t say it means nothing. As I pointed out to perazziman several pages back, admittedly in a mocking tone, Obama won his elections by wider margins of victory in both the popular and electoral votes than Clinton and Bush 43 ever did. </p>

<p>Racism still exists, but it is not a problem on a national level. Obama destroyed Romney in the electoral vote; it was not even close. Bush 43 never had those kinds of numbers in either 2000 or 2004.</p>

1008

<p>“And I destroyed your argument with three counterexamples.”</p>

<p>First, Fabrizio won this round of fabrizio/sosomanza debate with facts!</p>

<hr>

<p>Then, from me to sosomenza one on one,</p>

<p>“Memorizing SAT questions with matching answers is pretending to be smart.”</p>

<p>How many SAT questions (and matching answers) are there for all the past 20 years of Reading, Math, and Writing tests to be memorized? </p>

<h2>Please ANSWER it with numbers! (don’t just display your sour grapes mentality and hates.)</h2>

<p>“ How many pretenders have taken the top spots away from real students?”</p>

<p>Top schools also require SATII tests. Can anyone get high scores by memorizing all past 20 years of old test questions and matching answers on SAT Reading, MATH, Writing, SATII MATH, CHEMISTRY/PHYSIC/BIOLOGY? </p>

<p>If yes, PROVE IT! (don’t just continue to spew your hate!)</p>

<hr>

<p>I said: Because of their intelligence plus their hard-work they not only excel on tests (still spend less time than average students) </p>

<p>You said: “I doubt anyone spends longer studying than Asians.”</p>

<p>Now: (While one should not compare apples to oranges)
Do you mean among all White/Black/Asian/Hispanics who “SCORED HIGH” (say 750+) on tests, Asians spend longer studying?? </p>

<p>If yes, PROVE IT! (with numbers, please.)</p>

<hr>

<p>I said: Top scores won by international candidates are actually in the Black category for those from Nigeria or other African countries if you read top college decision threads. </p>

<p>You said: “Wrong & ludicrous.”</p>

<p>Now: PROVE IT!! (don’t just hate)</p>

<hr>

<p>I want to see proofs with EVIDENCES/NUMBERS, not just your non-credible and hateful opinions!!!</p>

1009

<p>it makes it tougher on Asian and Indian people, and “easier” on Hispanics and African Americans IMO. Like I’ve seen Asians get rejected with perfect stats and EC’s, but a person of Hispanic origin can get a 2100, play soccer, be a leader and do some research, but the Hispanic person gets the nod into Harvard.</p>

1010

<p>^ I think it depends on how and WHEN you define easier. If just being born Hispanic made it easier, Hispanics wouldn’t be “underepresented”, no? I would agree that the admit rates within the pool of applicants is higher, but my hypothesis is, getting into the pool of applicants is harder, statistically, at least.</p>

1011

<p>

Signed: Frabrizio, I mean Shrinkrap.</p>

<p>Frabrizio’s argument is likely what happens to kids who memorize SAT answers. He/ she might know the answer but the theory upon which the answer is based is still a mystery so going beyond the basic concept is impossible. Let’s help such people with the basics. </p>

<p>According to Webster AA is defined as: “an active effort to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups and women; also : a similar effort to promote the rights or progress of other disadvantaged persons.” </p>

<p>Now going beyond the basic memorized answer. For colleges admissions, AA goes far beyond race. It also includes economic subsidizing of low cost tuition and related financing. If one can remove the chip from one’s shoulder about not getting into an Elite school. One should be able to conclude that AA goes far beyond skin color and into The world of government economics. Of course since there are so many more T2 & T3 schools then there will be more AA, economic and otherwise, at that level. For those who demand proof, research individual state budgets and the large allocations to university funding.</p>

1012

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</p>

<p>Excellent Blacks and Hispanic candidates get rejected all the time. They just don’t whine about it. BTW if an Asian has perfect stats then he/she will get in. Consider that the SAT of 2400 might be a four test superscore. Consider that the essay, although technically correct, might lack passion. Consider the teachers recommendations were lukewarm because the student lacked class participation. Consider that the EC which claimed to have started a charitable organization could not be verified or worse. Anyone can claim to have perfect stats but in all likelihood, they’re not.</p>

1013

<p>

Now you’re assuming that every URM applicant with a 2100 or better will get in… not so. I’ve seen blacks with perfect stats and EC’s get rejected too. But as sosomenza states, we don’t generally hear them whining about it - maybe because they’re happy to get into 1 elite school, rather than worry about the option to choose among many.</p>

<p>fabrizio, when you were the only Asian in your class, did people expect you to fail, because of who you were, or did they expect you to do well - or pehaps have no preconceived notion about how you were as a student? It makes a big difference. And as for shallow, that person sitting next to me in English 101 isn’t any more likely to have anything in common with me than the black student living in the same dorm as me. If we’re talking upper level classes and electives, that’s a different story.</p>

1014

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</p>

<p>Still want to pretend that you know what you’re talking about. No problem. Minnesota will be number 35. [UMN</a>, Twin Cities](<a href=“http://www.oir.umn.edu/static/stsur/cds_2012_2013_TC.pdf]UMN”>http://www.oir.umn.edu/static/stsur/cds_2012_2013_TC.pdf), the flagship, considers racial/ethnic status. [UMN</a>, Crookston](<a href=“http://www3.crk.umn.edu/administration/institutionalresearch/enrollment/commondataset-2010-11.pdf]UMN”>http://www3.crk.umn.edu/administration/institutionalresearch/enrollment/commondataset-2010-11.pdf), a T2 state school, does not.</p>

<p>Iowa will be number 34. [The</a> University of Iowa](<a href=“http://provost.uiowa.edu/files/provost.uiowa.edu/files/cds_1213.pdf]The”>http://provost.uiowa.edu/files/provost.uiowa.edu/files/cds_1213.pdf), the flagship, does not consider racial/ethnic status. Your assertion predicts that [the</a> University of Northern Iowa](<a href=“http://www.ir.uni.edu/dbweb/go.cfm?pdf=pdf/facts/cds_12.pdf]the”>http://www.ir.uni.edu/dbweb/go.cfm?pdf=pdf/facts/cds_12.pdf), a T2 state school, does consider racial/ethnic status, but that is incorrect.</p>

<p>Colorado will be number 33. [UColorado</a> Boulder](<a href=“http://www.colorado.edu/pba/cds/cds13/index.htm]UColorado”>http://www.colorado.edu/pba/cds/cds13/index.htm), the flagship, considers racial/ethnic status. [UColorado</a> Colorado Springs](<a href=“http://www.uccs.edu/Documents/ir/cds/CDS2013.pdf]UColorado”>http://www.uccs.edu/Documents/ir/cds/CDS2013.pdf), a T2 state school, does not.</p>

<p>Missouri will be number 32. [Mizzou[/url</a>], the flagship, considers racial/ethnic status. [url=<a href=“http://www.umsl.edu/~ir/files/pdfs/cds2012_2013.pdf]The”>http://www.umsl.edu/~ir/files/pdfs/cds2012_2013.pdf]The</a> University of Missouri-St. Louis](<a href=“http://ir.missouri.edu/data-set/CDS%201213.pdf]Mizzou[/url”>http://ir.missouri.edu/data-set/CDS%201213.pdf), a T2 state school, does not.</p>

<p>Oregon will be number 31. [The</a> University of Oregon](<a href=“http://ir.uoregon.edu/sites/ir.uoregon.edu/files/CDS_2012-2013_For%20WEB.pdf]The”>http://ir.uoregon.edu/sites/ir.uoregon.edu/files/CDS_2012-2013_For%20WEB.pdf), the flagship, considers racial/ethnic status. [Eastern</a> Oregon University](<a href=“https://isdepot.eou.edu/public/ir/CDS/CDS_2012_13.pdf]Eastern”>https://isdepot.eou.edu/public/ir/CDS/CDS_2012_13.pdf), a T2 state school, does not.</p>

<p>Massachusetts will be number 30. [UMass</a> Amherst](<a href=“http://www.umass.edu/oapa/publications/cds/common_data_set_2011.pdf]UMass”>http://www.umass.edu/oapa/publications/cds/common_data_set_2011.pdf), the flagship, considers racial/ethnic status. [UMass</a> Dartmouth](<a href=“http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/institutionalresearch/CDS_2012-2013.pdf]UMass”>http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/institutionalresearch/CDS_2012-2013.pdf), a T2 state school, does not.</p>

<p>I won’t bother with the remaining 29 states because at this point, it is obvious that sosomenza is delusional, and he has destroyed what little credibility he had with his arrogance and substitution of opinion for facts. It is not that the T2/T3 state schools just don’t consider racial/ethnic status; they also don’t consider many other subjective factors. They largely emphasize the numbers: SAT and GPA. It is the T1 state schools that consider a variety of subjective criteria, including racial classification.</p>

<p>sosomenza wants to claim that “political pressures” lead to there being more racial preferences at T2/T3 state schools. Yet, he himself destroyed his own nonsensical claim in the very first post (#950) in which he made it: “Is anyone really complaining about not being able to get into a T3 school?”</p>

<p>Since he clearly believes the answer is no, what “political pressures” is he talking about? No one will complain of being denied admission to a T2/T3 state school, but people may complain about being denied admission to the state flagship. So if there are “political pressures” that lead to racial preferences, we should expect to see them at the flagships, which is exactly what we see.</p>

1015

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<p>There is no rule anywhere specifying that “if an Asian has perfect stats then he/she will get in.” You are once again showing everyone just how little you know about the admissions process, but do know that your arrogance is very amusing.</p>

<p>Again, the little data publicly available does not support any of your sour-grapes possibilities. [At</a> least for two years at Duke](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch]At”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch), Asian matriculants ranked higher than their black and Hispanic peers on all dimensions, including the subjective ones.</p>

1016

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<p>To answer your question, I’d say I was expected to do well. Are you trying to justify racial preferences on the grounds that some expect blacks to fail?</p>

1017

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<p>Why should I give proof to those who will not understand it? BUT JUST TO SHOW HOW WRONG YOU ARE- Here’s the budget & mission for the state University system of Maryland. If you can read the report, you will notice that Goal 3.1 is to have a 40% minority participation rate. Also the system receives about a billion dollars in funding from federal & local governments. -HOW’S THAT FOR PROOF!</p>

<p>To different degrees, every state encourages AA with political and economic support. Believing that AA is more pervasive at the elite schools is well, ridiculous.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.dbm.maryland.gov/agencies/operbudget/Documents/2013/Proposed/unsysmd.pdf[/url]”>http://www.dbm.maryland.gov/agencies/operbudget/Documents/2013/Proposed/unsysmd.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

1018

<p>Me: “First, Fabrizio won this round of fabrizio/sosomanza debate with facts!” </p>

<p>Sosomensa: “Signed: Frabrizio, I mean Shrinkrap.”</p>

<p>Shrimkrap didn’t won anything with evidence. Fabrizio destroyed your argument with three counterexamples!!! He(she) won! Ouch, Truth hurts! </p>

<p>“Excellent Blacks and Hispanic candidates get rejected all the time.”</p>

<p>Give me just 5 examples on Blacks who scored all 750+ plus excellent ECs and been rejected. I can give you 100 cases on Asians.</p>

1019

<p>^^^obviously another 1200 SAT score pretending to be a 2400. BTW, a 100 cases on Asians, seems awful heavy and painful?</p>

1020

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<p>Considering that Asians are included in the “percentage of minority undergraduate students,” that goal 3.1 is actually about “economically disadvantaged students,” and that you are pointing to goals that are meant to be achieved throughout the entire University System of Maryland, you’ve proven…nothing. Neither goal 3.1 nor goal 3.2 corroborates your claim that racial preferences are most prevalent at T2/T3 state schools.</p>

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<p>You destroyed your own assertion yourself: “Is anyone really complaining about not being able to get into a T3 school?” You are saying that the reason why people fight so hard to keep racial preferences is because they want to make sure T2/T3 state schools have enough “underrepresented” minorities. What a joke!</p>

<p>The reason why supporters of racial preferences fought so hard against Proposition 209 in California, for example, is because they wanted to fight for “underrepresented” minority representation at Berkeley and UCLA, not at Cal State Fullerton or even UC Riverside. In fact, your argument fails to explain why after Proposition 209, "[many…of</a> the minority students who didn’t get in to Berkeley or U.C.L.A. the first year after Prop. 209 was passed enrolled instead at one of the less selective U.C. campuses, including Irvine, Santa Cruz and Riverside](<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/02/magazine/the-class-of-prop-209.html]many...of"&gt;www.nytimes.com/1999/05/02/magazine/the-class-of-prop-209.html)."&lt;/p&gt;

<p>According to you, racial preferences are not pervasive at elites. If so, we should have seen little to no reduction in the percentage of blacks and Hispanics at Berkeley and UCLA. Instead, we should have seen a huge reduction at the “less selective” campuses such as Irvine and Riverside.</p>

<p>That is not what happened at all. The percentage of blacks at Hispanics dropped significantly at Berkeley and UCLA and increased at Irvine, Santa Cruz, and Riverside, the exact opposite of what would happen under your claim. Your “racial preferences is more prevalent at less selective universities” is a farce that reflects how utterly clueless you are about university admissions.</p>