<p>I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to use the math that way.</p>
<p>Sent from my Xperia T using Tapatalk</p>
<p>Yeah. Do NOT use math. The data from the College Board proves that an Asian high school graduate has DOUBLE the odds of attending an elite college compared with non-Asian students.</p>
<p>In contrast, the data shows Hispanics are half as likely to attend elite colleges compared with non-Hispanics.</p>
<p>But, lets us not do the math. Getting the facts would interfere with the incessant drone about imaginary mistreatment of Asian applicants.</p>
<p>Alanhouston, you are wrong.</p>
<p>In fact, you are going above and beyond wrong! You’re actually presenting facts that work against your own argument. The over representation of Asians (like you so kindly pointed out <3) is a factor in the anti-Asian bias (however influential this may be). Do you not understand why? You’re argument would ONLY be considered valid if ALL people were the same and ALL people applied to EVERY school. OBVIOUSLY that’s wrong.</p>
<p>Presenting facts can be great. Misunderstanding them and telling others about such misunderstood facts is not so great.</p>
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<p>That does not mean Asians have “double the chance of being admitted compared with non-Asian students.”</p>
<p>“Asians are a tiny 8% of high school graduates yet get 15% to 20% of the seats at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, etc.” – Asians are definitely Over Represented Minorities (ORM), for sure! But whether Asians are “Fairly Represented Minorities” (FRM) is worth considering. Given their academic credentials, Asians may be entitled to higher percentage in top/competitive schools. For example, with less or no AA, UC’s have over 40% of Asians. If Asians are treated fairly, Harvard/MIT should have probably over 30% of Asians. It won’t happen, of course. But what I mean is ORM doesn’t automatically translate into FRM. So as far as fairness goes, ORM doesn’t mean much.</p>
<p>*Quote:
Asians are a tiny 8% of high school graduates yet get 15% to 20% of the seats at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, etc. An Asian student has DOUBLE the chance of being admitted compared with non-Asian students. *</p>
<p>Your comparison has flaws. One should look at the % of Asian in the top 5% student population. My educated guess and years of observation lead me to think it’s much higher than 8%, or even 16%. In our huge nationally-ranked public high school, about 80% of the top 20 students are Asian, while Asian only represents 20% of the school population. So the Asian applicant pool is generally stronger.</p>
<p>I get the point that the college admission is a holistic process. But I think it’s quite wrong to judge Asian students as mere test-takers. Over the years, I have seen many cases where well-rounded, high achieving Asian students being denied by elite schools; while less qualified non-Asian minority students gain admission. It so happens that our zip code is one of the top 20 richest zip code in the US, so social economic factor should be relatively equal among Asian and non-Asian families. </p>
<p>I do understand such an argument is not productive. My direction to my children is this: can you change the fact that you are Asian? If not, all you can do is to try your best. And remember, knowledge will stay with you forever. The other thing we did was to have DS apply to a top UK school, where the admission is 100% academic driven. The experience has been great! Regardless of the outcome, we felt that the evaluation process was straight-forward and fair.</p>
<p>Sorry to interrupt the ongoing discussion, but wanted to report back because several people have been kind enough to ask what decision my daughter (whose situation facing some race-based/racist incidents at her college was discussed heartily and thoroughly upthread a few months ago) made about whether to return to her school for the remainder of freshman year (spring semester.) She has decided to return and finish out the year, while applying to transfer to schools in more urban and diverse environments for sophomore year. Staying for the spring semester will also give her more time to adjust to her current school and perhaps even find her place there, so it is very possible she won’t transfer at all. Of course, she well may. But the ball is in her court, so to speak! Thanks to everyone who spent time discussing all of this with me.</p>
<p>Thanks for coming back with the update BlueRoses, good luck to your D!</p>
<p>I know this thread is old, but as a highly qualified and extremely hardworking African American student, I just want those who believe that blacks and Hispanics are “taking away” the seats of Asians and whites in elite universities to know that I, and many others, do not NEED preferential treatment to be admitted over you, so get off your high horses, and get it through your thick skulls that there are intelligent blacks & Hispanics out there. Thank you and good day.</p>
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<p>I hope this means you oppose racial preferences.</p>
<p>I support affirmative action, and it seems as though the Supreme Court does too, but my point is that many of the posts I have read on this thread, including your own, completely undermine the dedication and ambition possessed by many of the URMs admitted into respectable universities. I am not going to have a drawn out debate with you over this issue, because, frankly, I have better things to do with my time than try to convince you to see things from my point of view since you seem quite unwilling to consider any ideas that contrast with your own, but I do encourage you and anyone else who may be reading this right now to know that the “racial preferences” admission officers take into account will not be ignored because of upset CCers, so the little insults being thrown about are unnecessary and juvenile, & I say that with nothing but respect. I am done here and will not be responding to anything else written on this thread, but feel free to reply if doing so will make you happy. Peace be with you :-)</p>
<p>I don’t think you can quote a single post of mine where I “completely undermine[d] the dedication and ambition possessed by many of the ‘URMs’ admitted into respectable universities.” And it’s intellectually dishonest to make these types of accusations and then basically say you’re out of the discussion. If you want to say something like that about me, you better be ready to back it up.</p>
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<p>Wise words. </p>
<p>You just saved yourself a ton of aggravation, and saved yourself the effort of feeding a well-known and spiteful ■■■■■. Do not look back.</p>
<p>Spiteful? Interesting word choice from someone who takes it upon himself to caricature Asians as thieving, conniving, resume padding, grade grubbing, system gaming cheats. I’ve long since lost any respect I had for you back when you were CC’s go to guy for SAT prep.</p>
<p>I’m not sure where the idea that Asians are test-taking robots that need to be suppressed comes from. It’s clearly not the case. We are just superior applicants as a whole even outside of test scores and GPA.</p>
<p>For example, it is well known that California banned Affirmative Action. Once UC-Berkeley could not consider race, suddenly the Asian enrollment numbers become 40%. It would probably be more without academia hampering the initiative in every way.</p>
<p>The point is, we are not test-taking robots and the statistics of admissions at Berkeley support that. The facts show that we are well-rounded applicants that, if race were taken out of the equation, would be a bigger part in many Ivy League campuses.</p>
<p>By the way, thanks Fab for defending we Asians articulately on boards like these. I’m not sure why the African American commenter above called you a bigot. The position against affirmative action is the only logically sound one; and only an Affirmative Action based on income is just. Yet they wish to help those who don’t deserve it. Anyways, thanks for all you’ve done and keep up the good work.</p>
<p>@livingforlife
It’s obvious that our whining won’t change anything. But eventually, given the way things are going, affirmative action will be thankfully phased out. California has banned it and Michigan has banned it. Soon the wave of justice will spread and Asians will not be punished arbitrarily for their skin color any more. </p>
<p>It is the objective of others on this board to persuade those for Affirmative Action that their positions are baseless and idiotic. Every premise of your arguments can be undermined so easily; this is the sign of a weak position. Abandon it and be free of your preconceptions and prejudices.</p>
<p>@livingforlife
You say we “undermine” ambitious URMs. But aren’t you undermining more deserving Asians that are far more ambitious, far more accomplished, and far more hardworking? Sheesh. Talk about willful ignorance.</p>
<p>You also talk about our "high horse"s. I don’t know, what is more “juvenile”, Fabrizo’s well-thought-out arguments or comments on “little insults” and “better things to do with my time”.</p>
<p>“Immigrants who arrived in the US from countries where they are the dominant majority, especially if they came after their formative childhood/teen years tend to be much less sensitive to these issues in the US because they either haven’t experienced them in their formative years and/or have accepted “that’s the way it is” and tell others who express pain/hurt to “suck it up”. The ones in this group forget that unlike they themselves, their children don’t have the benefit of growing up as part of a dominant majority and thus, not fully aware of difficulties they may experience as minorities.”</p>
<p>C’mon cobrat. This just is not true. My parents are immigrants, and they have faced many more difficulties than I have as a minority. Imagine leaving your home country and entering one where your accent is mocked, where the culture is completely unlike your own, where people like you dismiss their pain and hurt and struggle as minimal. The immigrant experience is so much more than packing some bags, hopping on a plane, and living out the great ole American dream. Let us all remember that the lives of no group of people can or should be idealized.</p>
<p>@soserious
Cobrat is actually agreeing with you. He’s saying that immigrants, because they have not lived here enough, don’t know that they are being shafted and so do not stand up for themselves. He would agree with you.</p>
<p>@Kerkolus: Thank you for trying to clarify and doing so in a respectable manner. I ask, with absolutely no malice, that you pay this same courtesy to livingforlife. </p>
<p>In my experience, I’ve seen that being forced to overcome the obstacles that come with being an immigrant in the US makes one more aware of injustice. But I do acknowledge that I cannot speak for all immigrants or children of immigrants when I say this.</p>