<p>I’m going to sidestep the policy debate and pose a more practical question on the topic…if a person has a last name that seems to imply they are a different ethnicity than they actually are (Filipino/a student with a Spanish last name, or a White student with an Asian-sounding last name) is it better to not disclose race or to include it? I’m asking particularly because of the unresolved question from years back on the thread, as to whether or not “Asian” (South or East) is considered a URM or an overly-represented group…</p>
<p>I have the same question, but I’m going to start a new thread specifically about it, because I don’t think it will get answered in here.</p>
<p>I’ve always kind if wondered, as a white student, if it was in my best interest to not identify. I assumed if you are an underrepresented minority, you should definitely identify.</p>
<p>Minority is minority. An African-American student with a prominent family background should still not be judged the same as a white student. Though, I DO NOT think that African-American student should be judged the same way an inner-city one. Absolutely not. But I do think race from any type of socioeconomic status should be judged differently than other races due to the fact that even African American students with prominent family backgrounds have to deal with race issues in their day-to-day lives. And most of those “prominent” ones have to deal with being in a society with all white people, which is 99% of the time more difficult to deal with than you would probably think.</p>
<p>I think that is a fairly harsh statement. 80% of the time my life is going good as a black man. As far as the 20% when it’s not going so well. 5% of my challenges just come from being human-Life happens and we all go thru some stuff. 5% is stuff I did to make things not so hot-like bouncing a check or making a wrong turn or stupid choice. 5% is stupid stuff other people do. 5% is work related-bad boss, layoffs, too much paperwork, too short deadlines, etc.</p>
<p>Dealing with white people is tremendously small as far as problems. I experience racism but it only has power if I give it power. Most racism is psychological, emotional and mental. There is some economic racism but the impact can be minimized with a strong financial education. Physical racism almost never happens in my case but years of combat training, martial arts and physical presence and street sense make me an unlikely target for a physical attack.</p>
<p>@Madaboutx That’s true, but it is different when you are raised in a predominately Caucasian surrounding.</p>
<p>So, this was a conversation with a bunch of African American kids, including me. One kid said that all of the low income black kids get all of the ‘breaks’ with admissions. They often get first generation, questbridge, more flyins, etc.</p>
<p>The result? Kids from the middle and upper middle class are less likely to get slots than the above, simply because their parents are NOT low income…the dreaded hard working middle class: Enough to be comfortable, not enough to be full pay, too much to get Questbridge and other scholarships.</p>
<p>Heated debate followed, as the group was very, very mixed economically.</p>
<p>I wonder…in admissions do they ‘group’ all African American kids together or are those from low income families in a different pile that gets more of an edge in admissions?</p>
<p>How, if at all, does being African American and Middle Class hurt or help you?
Is there a plan or strategy middle class kids should follow to help with admissions?</p>
<p>HSG
(who is not complaining that parents are part of the hard working middle class and is glad for others Questbridge exists!)</p>
<p>Based on my observations from CC and other articles I have read over the years, ABSOLTUELY NO DATA TO BACK THIS. SES seems to be a factor that is considered in an applicant’s background.</p>
<p>There seems to be some classification of URMs: Hispanic in the Hispanic Pool, African Americans in the African American Pool, Native Americans in the Native American Pool. For each ethnic pool, the differentiation will surface, Adcoms are able to decipher from one’s application, the factors of Advantages and Disadvantages. Parents Salary, zipcodes, et al.</p>
<p>An applicant who is AA low income ,first gen, overcame severe adversity, have had to hold a full time job to assist family, unable to participate in school clubs/ECs, is from a geographical location that is desirable by the college and a SAT 600+ but still within the minimum of a college requirement. Those are among the factors on which that applicant will be reviewed.</p>
<p>An AA applicant who is not the above will and in my opinion should be held in a higher standard. These particular kids should be having the 700+ SAT scores because they have the means to find the resources, tutoring et al to support this. These kids may not be required to work a full time job, because they have travel soccer, lacrosse, music practices et al and spearheading some Community Service Programs.</p>
<p>The goal should be, whether one is low income/middle/high to maintain a rigorous course load resulting in High GPAs. Kids need to strive toward the academic/extra curricular balance. In the end, all SES groups will contribute to the diversity of the campus to which they matriculate. Colleges accept students who they believe can withstand the rigor of their schools.</p>
<p>Bottom Line: Present your BEST self in your application and let the chips fall where they may.</p>
<p>I would tend to agree with LearninginProg. The only advantage I would possibly argue is that middle class black kids do not generally get scholarships geared toward low income, nor should they.</p>
<p>I think it is interesting that you and your friends have had this discussion, HSG. Sounds like you came away wondering, but not judging. Good place to be and keep focusing on your apps and not/how others are getting things and you will be fine.</p>
<p>Might there be more ‘help’ out there for low income blacks than middle and upper class? Probably. But by the nature of being middle and upper middle class that group has built in help and resources.</p>
<p>Interesting thread.
T</p>
<p>The best colleges are now all extending outreach to “low income” families. The colleges operate under a fairy tale in which they believe that there are all these “diamonds in the rough” and Einsteins just waiting to be discovered through a more thorough and less-discouraging admissions process. One way they do this is to send out come-hither letters to everyone who scores a certain level on the SAT or ACT and, in this way, hope to interest a few of the lower-income students who are at these levels. The problem must be that these students never return the compliment and actually take the bait and apply. So now what the Ivies are doing is probably sending out their readers to the absolute dregs of high schools around the nations, ginning up applications (free fees, etc.) so that they can make sure that the highly-skilled students in Andover and Exeter are promptly rejected in favor of those with more of a sob story about overcoming stuff. After “diversity,” the new buzz phrase among adcomms is “how far have you come?” So, it is better now to be poor, broken family, work at McDonalds, support your welfare dad, etc. and still get good grades and show your focus on your “community” in all of your work – you have the story that the colleges are looking for. Terrible home life, but focus, good grades, teachers that love you. It’s the cliche of the day.</p>
<p>Really, now, the only way for your basic middle-class kid to overcome this accelerating bias towards the “poor,” is to be a stand out athlete in effete sports like lacrosse and rowing. There still is a market for those sports at the Ivies and the poor rarely nudge these athletes aside.</p>
<p>This is crazy!!</p>
<p>I grew up low income and black.</p>
<p>My kids have grown up middle class.</p>
<p>My kids have benefitted tremendously from my stature, experience and knowledge. </p>
<p>The only problem being middle class is that there is no money to help. The low income can often get assistance especially if they are academically solid. The rich don’t need the help. The middle class gets royally shafted.</p>
<p>Middle class can, if they choose, hire tutors & test prep services, travel to visit colleges, live in neighborhoods with good schools, some can afford private school, parents who went to college can convey wisdom on the experience as well as a legacy boost to their kids, they can show their kids a world of business and money making that low income parents can not, their income, safe neighborhoods and good jobs often provide a sense of stability, security and structure with fewer bumps in the road that can derail a child academically and they are most often two parent homes.</p>
<p>Middle class kids that feel disadvantaged are so spoiled they don’t see their many advantages.</p>
<p>Even as blessed as my kids are, they may never have the drive to succeed that I had. I grew up poor and learned young how to look out for myself. I had no structure, no dad in the picture and was way out there. The army became my daddy and whooped my tail into shape which has benefitted me greatly in terms of post-military success. Now, my kids act like they are too good to join the military.</p>
<p>That’s probably why I like mentoring many low income kids - they are more like me than my own kids on some days.</p>
<p>HSG…
I don’t think it is really an AA issue that you are addressing. The same “advantages” will be afforded to all low income applicants. The real difference is that middle/upper class AA students will not necessarily receive the URM boosts that they are hoping for…or that others assume they are receiving.</p>
<p>@Madaboutx: Well said!</p>
<p>Saying that low income AA have an “advantage” is like the majority population complaining that AAs have an “advantage” being black. I’m sorry but when did it become advantageous in this country to be AA???</p>
<p>While there may be a statistical advantage in admission, I don’t think anyone who is middle class would trade their lives with someone who is low income. And the people that complain that AAs get breaks in admission wouldn’t want their child to spend ten minutes in this country as a member of a minority group.</p>
<p>Lets keep this in perspective. Those in the AA middle and upper middle class have worked very hard to provide opportunities for our kids. If they don’t take advantage of these opportunities, and as parents, we don’t push them to leverage these advantages that income and education provides, then the blame lies inside of the house not at the admissions office of whichever university rejected them.</p>
<p>@MadaboutX…when you say “This is Crazy!” are you talking about the fact that we had the conversation or the questions I posted?
Again, this stems from a conversation of TEENS, not insightful adults. I posted here because I wanted the insight for myself, and to go back and share. As a high school student, I certainly don’t have the answers but did not think it was ‘crazy’ to ask or that we had the discussion, but maybe I was off base. Sorry to offend.</p>
<p>This started when one girl from school came back from a fly earlier this month where kids were bragging about being low income and how they were better off than ‘you kids with from two parent homes in the suburbs’. What REALLY put her over the edge was when a whole group from NYC (I think) kept bragging about how their QB status (they were sure they’d get) would get them in GREAT schools and their low income advisor made calls after rejections to help them get into Fly Ins. It was her experience that started the conversation as a whole. </p>
<p>Just thought I would share for information and to help work through this. My parents said the last thing bright black teens need to be doing is NOT supporting one another. Thank goodness there was non of that drama at the fly in I went to!
HSG</p>
<p>When I said this is crazy I was referring to the notion of middle class AAs saying they are at a disadvantage for the most part. To a smaller degree, the fact that this is even debatable is a little like diving in the shallow end too.</p>
<p>I’ve lived it on both sides of the track and if I could go back to being poor again I would refuse because the advantages of money are real and tangible and profound. The benefit to me of growing poor was that it gave me a burning desire not to be poor. I think many middle class AAs do worse than their parents because they don’t have that same drive.</p>
<p>Hi, fellow parents. My daughter is a freshman at a medium-sized private liberal arts university. She fell in love with the school last year (her senior year in HS) and applied ED. Turns out that the university was a poor choice for her for various reasons, including that she is a minority and this school is not very diverse at all. When she was visiting (several times) senior year, we were told repeatedly that the school’s number one priority was to be more global and increase diversity. I can now see why. Since she moved in, she has heard about, witnessed and been subject to a number of race-based incidents. She is doing well in her classes (A’s and B’s) but has become disheartened. She called me sobbing yesterday because, for the last more-than-a-month, one or two kids in her foreign language class have been mocking the teacher (who is from China) behind her back, and making racist remarks about Chinese music videos shown to the class. I think she is just fed up and feels it is a hostile environment. </p>
<p>So we are trying to decide how best to support her and what to do. My instinct is to have her finish the last month of the semester (she is earning A’s and B’s) and bring her home. She can get a job (she has had jobs before) and work, and we can take the time to support her and help her find a college or university that is more diverse and where a brown person doesn’t attract attention. Of course, this puts her college schedule behind by a whole semester. But it seems to me that rushing to get a transfer application in to a college or university she hasn’t even looked at seems too hasty and would be asking her to make another huge adjustment rather quickly. </p>
<p>In any case, thoughts? Also, how the heck are transfers handled? Do kids just go to the college where they are and tell their advisor they are leaving? (Sorry for the dual post, but I figured the original headline on the post wasn’t telling the whole story, so I thought I would try again. The forum wouldn’t let me edit the first post!)</p>
<p>I think she should finish the semester, and take a leave. Then work on the transfer. There is absolutely no reason why she should stay. </p>
<p>As for the college schedule…life doesn’t work on a schedule. She’ll find a place where she feels comfortable and will do well, and she has a great future ahead of her.</p>
<p>mini, thanks for the support. Now our task is going to be convincing her that no one will be disappointed if she works college on a different timeline.</p>
<p>I’m so sorry she’s going through this. I agree with mini – finish the semester then take a leave for the spring semester (and maybe take some core requirements at a local community college while she does transfer apps). As I remember (since D was considering transferring last year), March 1 was the cutoff for apps for the fall semester and many schools use the common app for transfer applications.</p>
<p>Were there other schools on her list that she applied to and was accepted at? Or did she just do ED, get in, and not apply to other schools? Just wondering if some of the schools that were on her list would be a good place to start for transfer apps.</p>
<p>Was this LAC isolated? Maybe she’d be better off either at a larger school or one that is near or in a big city.</p>
<p>Lastly, would she consider Smith? Shameless plug from a proud alum :)</p>
<p>Good luck</p>
<p>Sorry to hear about her situation.</p>
<p>If she really feels like getting out then do so at the end of the semester.
She does not have to lose any time. Her 1st semester credits can transfer. Next Spring she can go to a community college. They review and accept students very quickly. </p>
<p>Start applying to other universities for next school year now even if you are not 100% , you want more choices than not.</p>