Not sure where all this hostility towards blacks and latinos is coming from. The average asian family makes more than twice the amount of a black family and almost twice as much as a latino family. So yes there is a lot more money available in general to certain groups to get special tutoring and special help. That is why AA is needed. It has been repeatedly shown that with special tutoring SAT scores can be increased by 300 points. That takes money blacks and hispanics just don’t have. Extra family money can also buy EC opportunities that many black families and latino families can not afford. Also the field group data came from the University of California and asian advocacy groups. I guess I am old fashioned and believe that all men are created equal
Thank you Guy. I think the ivies call it the holistic approach. That is a really good approach
Sat alone has been shown to be a poor predictor of success. Secondly since you think there should be an income boost how about we give a 100 point boost for each 10,000 below the asian median family income that the applicant family makes. Guy you must be really disappointed that Romney is not running for president.
@guy…you didn’t thrash your classmates, you had a 3.7. Not a great GPA, even for your your HS. Get over yourself.
I am now taking a backseat to watch the nightly circus provided by GuyWithHighIQ and the posters that take him on. Apparently no mods care to remove his posts. If all of us get tired of him, I think we could click to Ignore his posts. I might try it if I get tired of the show. I don’t doubt that there might be discrimination against poor Asians, but his story seems hard to believe. Also, he got into a good school (Cornell). It’s not like he was “forced” to go to Podunk State U.
florida26 “Sat alone has been shown to be a poor predictor of success”, do you really believe that the bottom 10% of SAT test takers will be more successful than the top 10% of test takers? Would your really put money on that proposition? I doubt it.
What you are spouting is the common argument made by racial preference supporters who argue that SAT is a poor predictor of 1st year college GPA compared to high school GPA. Never mind that students have already self selected themselves into schools based upon their academic achievement except for those who are given huge preferences at admission.
How many times have we heard that SAT is a better predictor of family income than college/life success? Yes, there are outliers where low SAT students are successful, but in general that his not the case. In general, top SAT scorers do much better in college and in life. Why do you think we are even discussing this in the first place that URM should get into top schools?? Because a lot of people believe that top schools turn out high achieving people so having lower achieving URM attend these institutions will help them be successful, when in fact it is high achieving students who turn out to be high achieving people out of these schools, not withstanding , GuywithIQ’s situation that a few top companies do not hire many outside of a few select schools.
I am getting tired of the misinformation that all it takes is “special tutoring SAT scores can be increased by 300 points. That takes money blacks and hispanics just don’t have.” The average SAT of the rich is about 1800, if special tutoring can increase scores then why aren’t the scores of rich families mean SAT over 2100? or 2200? The reason why is that money cannot help those who have reached their threshold of understanding. My niece comes from a family that is in the top 1% of income earners but she with all the money spent could not get her to 1900 SAT. My son who is upper middle class studied one week and scored over 2200. My nephew who is in our income bracket, studied for months and could not get over 1900. I grew up dirt poor and over 30 years ago scored 1420/1600 SAT on a single exam without any test prep.
florida26 then goes on with “Extra family money can also buy EC opportunities that many black families and latino families can not afford”, if that is the case then why do elite schools use EC’s in its “holistic” admission process. Because that statement suggests that the poor (whether black hispanic white Asian) can not buy EC recognition needed for elite college admission so the use of EC would discriminate against the poor.
Who really do we want to help in giving a helping hand in the admission to elite schools? Blacks and hispanics? or the POOR? I’m for giving a helping hand to the latter. People do not seem to realize that over 90% of elite schools’ students come from upper middle class+. Less than 10% of the students in these schools come from the poor to lower middle class.
In my opinion, the poor are more deserving of a helping hand than rich blacks and rich hispanics. There are more poor students with SAT 2100+ than there are rich students with SAT 2100+ but the ratio of rich to poor at elite colleges is 10 to 1. Why do you think that is?
Haha…
according to a october 7,2014 article in the Wall Street Journal the difference between low income sat takers and high income takers is approximately 400 points. WSJ referred to the SAT as the student affluence test. It is almost a straight line correlation. Wow!!! Guy is espousing the super race theory!!! I thought that went away with Germany in the 40s. I guess not. Without AA and holistic admissions the economic disparity will only become worse. That is why asians support AA more than 5 to 1!!! That is using their own data. It is hard to argue with factual evidence except with individual cases that deviate from the mean
The truth about standardized testing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv_Cr1a6rj4
The way forward as I see it:
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2013/10/18/how-liberal-students-could-change-affirmative-action-debate-essay
Any one on board?
@voice,
Yawn… mismatched students surviving by switching to easier majors has been discussed on CC ad nauseam. Between SCOTUS decisions, there’s nothing new to see in this thread except occasional megalomaniacal entertainment like @HighIQ. Pass me the popcorn.
GMT then you should have no problem succinctly stating the position of those who have “argued to death” fabrizio’s mismatch. Please provide it. If I hear that high school GPA is a better predictor than SAT for college GPA or the elite graduation rate arguments, then I will know that you are blowing smoke but I am all ears.
florida26 since there is a 400 point difference between poor and the rich, then why is being a poor given a lower preference in elite college admission than being black or Hispanic? Why should a rich black or Hispanic receive the admission preference over poor whites and Asians? I hope you realize that the vast majority of blacks and Hispanics that receive racial preferences at elite schools come from upper middle to rich SES.
Post #1699 … whoa
So socioeconomic inequalities justify racial preferences? Talk about a non sequitur.
Please, if you actually believed that, you would not advocate unequal treatment by racial classification.
Beautiful article. Thanks, Canuckguy. Of course, the reality is that very few of these “injustice!” types will refrain from applying to their favored selective institutions. Naturally, they will continue to harass Asians for being “obsessed” with the same schools, which they can say without shame because they will apply to some schools that they would only attend if they were not accepted by their preferred schools.
But I’ll be fair. In a previous incarnation of this thread, I had a discussion with a person who claimed to be a current Asian American student at Princeton. He argued that Princeton should cap Asian enrollment to ~5%, but of course he did not have to leave. So this kind of blatant hypocrisy can be found everywhere.
Edit
That discussion is actually in this thread. Even after a year and a half, I still facepalmed myself hard at how bad his arguments were.
@GuyWithHighIQ SAT’s aren’t indicative of anything. The SAT tests how well you take the SAT, nothing more. In case you haven’t noticed, it has a Writing section that compromises a third of the total score. How is spotting grammatical errors and writing an essay in 25 minutes representative of a person’s IQ level? And knowing words like "celerity"and “impecunious” (in the Reading section) show that I have good ENGLISH vocabulary and that I probably read a lot, but does not necessarily say I’m smart.
Even if you choose to ignore the above (and I have a feeling you might, seeing your previous posts) you must see the logic behind colleges taking things other than tests scores in consideration. A 2400 is certainly impressive, but it is not an impossible score to achieve nor is it rare to do so by far; this website alone hosts the stats of numerous kids who got perfect SAT * and * ACT scores, as well as a 4.0 (or higher) GPA (I guess they passed the exams * and * did their homeworks) who are applying to Ivy colleges. If Yale for instance looked only at SAT scores, it would have to admit 10,000+ students every year - and I’m talking about those who get 2350 and above. The other things on your application are there to show what kind of person you are and all that. Believe it or not, IQ levels are not determined by Standardized test scores and they are certainly not the only component of a person’s personality.
To all those who believe that the SAT is just a proxy for family income, please read this study:
http://openpsych.net/ODP/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ParentsIncomeisaPoorPredictorofSATScoreFinal.pdf
BTW what happened to more than 5 pages of postings?? Does anyone know??
voice you have it backwards!!! It is not if B then A It is if A then B High SAT is a predictor of high income
florida26 What is “A” and what is “B” you are speaking of?
Infinity Your not serious are you about perfect SAT scores “A 2400 is certainly impressive, but it is not an impossible score to achieve nor is it rare to do so by far”? Try to get a perfect score and see if you succeed. There is a reason why only a handful of students out of millions are able to do so.
As to your comment that the SAT “aren’t indicative of anything. The SAT tests how well you take the SAT, nothing more.” Go see the youtube video posted by Canuckguy. Also why do you think getting a 2400 is impressive it isn’t indicative of anything?
Voice It is impressive because you beat the test. And I have seen a lot of people get 2400 and 2350’s on this very site. The college data set that schools like the Ivies publish show that a lot of it’s applicants have perfect scores. I am not talking about everyone, but people who actually apply to elite schools. The something - thousand students who get these scores prove that it is far from the 1 in a 1000000000 scenario you make it seem to be.
Oh? So me knowing English grammar and having a knack for solving really easy Math problems presented in a wordy manner makes me a genius? And if it really is a pointer to a person’s IQ level, then why do they have SAT prep courses? As I understand it, IQ tests are supposed to be taken with no preparation whatsoever. It is designed to test how good you are at standardized tests (English ones at that) and (maybe) your English language skills. Which is why AMERICAN colleges use it, and NOT the rest of the world.
high income is not a predictor of high sat per se High SAT is a predictor of high income. One is the converse of the othher