"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 11

@GMTplus7 “But isn’t it black people who do this to other black people? I’m not aware of non-black people discouraging black students from achieving.”

Just because you haven’t heard it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. White students do it ALL the time. They disparage minority accomplishments by positing it’s due to racial preference. They’ve said I’m the whitest black person they know. Just because you haven’t heard it doesn’t mean you have the ability to deny someone else’s claim. This is the crux of the problem when non minority people try to interject a space when minorities are speaking. They speak from their own perspective.

“Certain names are potential liabilities no matter what race. If I had a girl, I wouldn’t name her Cinnamon, Sapphire, or Destiny, not because those names are associated with any particular race, but because the first thing a lot of people will think of is pole-dance rather than CEO.”

Your child could adjust so that she doesn’t bear that liability, by getting a nickname. Can a black person ever avoid the negativity borne by the skin? If you assume a nickname and go through the process you’d be fine, however, even if a black person cleared the resume stage, they face increased racism when interviews arise.

@GMTplus7

“But isn’t it black people who do this to other black people? I’m not aware of non-black people discouraging black students from achieving.”

The phrase “acting white” is only used by black students, yes. But the general discouragement of achievement of blacks is not only done by blacks. People say “You’re not like most black kidsI know, you’re a good one” and things of that ilk. I mean even this week people were surprised that I was ranked so highly in my class, despite the fact that I give off the obvious nerd persona (me with glasses AND braces was not a good time).

“Certain names are potential liabilities no matter what race. If I had a girl, I wouldn’t name her Cinnamon, Sapphire, or Destiny, not because those names are associated with any particular race, but because the first thing a lot of people will think of is pole-dance rather than CEO.”

Cinnamon and Sapphire aren’t common black names. Destiny is, Asia, Aliya (in many different spellings), Domanique, and obviously the stereotypical names ending in Quisha, quana, or whatever. And no, those aren’t stripper names. And I’m pretty sure Jamal, Malik, and Jaquan aren’t stripper names, but you can continue trying to push your incorrect assertion if you want. If you want to deny the Bertrand study, then fine. There’s still the fact that people were more critical of resumes after learning that their applicant was black. I’ll link to the study if I find it.

“You complain that you are oppressed by racial stereotyping, so your solution is to stereotype people by race?”
No…I said that’s the way colleges go about it. And if you want to skip over the various examples of bias in the legal system, education field, and business fields where I showed you being black is a distinct advantage to make me come off as a ranter, then that’s a “you” problem.

“I also believe reforming the legal/job market does more good than AA”
I didn’t mean anything by this, it was a poor choice of words. I hope that racism in hiring processes ends, I don’t know how I would approach it. I just didn’t want to only address one part of their response.

“Also I think the term African-American is more or less ridiculous because it allows white SA to benefit from AA”
The person in this thread that just called a White South African, African-American…

“Wouldn’t it be more sensible to apply rectification at the K-12 level? Especially since the majority of students don’t go on to college.”
Sure. Why not?

“If you want to argue that it won’t kill other people if they don’t get into Harvard, then by the same token it shouldn’t kill you either.”
It’s not, my stats are fine, and I’m not applying to Harvard. But if blacks suffer a myriad of disadvantages in life due to race, I’m going to take advantage of the few benefits we’re given. It’s just an issue that the same people complaining about affirmative action are the same ones that don’t see issues with racism against blacks in the status quo. But I’m sure you’re not one of those people.

“I do indeed believe Blacks experience harsher racism than other racial minority groups, but your arguments above just comes off as an incoherent rant.”
Oh, it was hard to see considering you either ignored the instances of racism you didn’t have a response to, or tried to make weak responses to the arguments you did have a response to. But thank you for your input on how my post tha explained why Affirmative Action is nothing compared to the institutionalized racism that the majority has put onto blacks came off as an incoherent rant. I’ll try to present my posts in a better manner in the future that meets your tough quality standards, but in my defense I did type it on my phone.

I would just like to point out that there is discrimination in the college admissions process based on race. You can’t deny this. Whenever I see a chance thread, my response is about 50% based on what race they are. YOU CAN’T DENY THIS. I don’t really think the selective discrimination is detrimental though…

Some people say that, for instance, Chinese people are over-represented in top colleges, so they are not discriminated against. Why is this? It’s because only the best Chinese people - those that go to like the top few Universities in China (~0.001%) are able to escape communism and get to the United States. And the children of these people will be, on average, “better” in terms of college admissions stats than, not to be racist, the average illegal immigrant family from Mexico.

The minute someone says not to be racist, they are always going to be racist.

@GMTplus7 “I’m not aware of non-black people discouraging black students from achieving.”

Buddy. A lot of non-black races harbor inner racial disdain towards blacks period, nevermind just in the scope of academic achievement.

“Certain names are potential liabilities no matter what race. If I had a girl, I wouldn’t name her Cinnamon, Sapphire, or Destiny, not because those names are associated with any particular race, but because the first thing a lot of people will think of is pole-dance rather than CEO.”

Are you saying names like those are explicitly associated with blacks and that strippers are stereotypically black?

I personally can’t offer an opinion on racial factors in college admissions benefitting blacks. I do believe, however, that a black person who receives lower grades or has lower stats than a white or Asian person shouldn’t be looked at more favorably. However, if its close or a tie, and especially if the black applicant has stronger personal qualities, then the consideration of ethnicities should come into play.

Blacks actually don’t benefit the most from AA, they do however receive most of the backlash for it. Discriminatory practices in job hiring is real, and no its not limited to people named “Sapphire” or “Giselle”. Its been shown that people with an “ethnic sounding” name don’t get as much callbacks as people with a traditional “white sounding” name. Understand AA encompasses gays, females, and other ethnicities as well.

I feel like people just don’t want to see opposition against the system that keeps blacks misrepresented, poor, and disenfranchised. Its like people are almost scared or anxious towards educated black people and might even actively seek to oppress them. Even with racial factors in play in college admissions, the amount of black applicants let alone admitted students to the top universities (where the whole race discussion actually matters) is not staggering. The talented and outstanding students will still get in, no matter what race. I’m Asian-American but the likelihood of me getting into Harvard with the same stats but if I was a URM wouldn’t necessarily skyrocket.

I also don’t quite get why Caucasians aren’t subject to nearly the same amount of discrimination in the college admissions process as Asians are. It seems like everyday white privilege becomes more and more of a real thing that infiltrates all levels of life.

@GMTplus7 dancelance is right. I live in a 95% white area and I’m very annoyed at my school community. Anytime I do well on a test they get all surprised and ask if I was cheating. This has been going on consistently for years with the same people. They can’t seem to understand how a black guy who plays varsity sports and sags his pants can possibly be smart. When I was in middle school, this caused me to hate myself and everyone and my grades were terrible. Glad I have changed my mindset.

@chrisceeaustin Which depresses me and encourages me at the same time. As an asian, my view is just accpet who you are and the unfairness and use it to push yourself to a new extent in effort to distinguish yourself from others. You might find being asian to be an rewarding and unique experience. (okay, I srsly need advice to help me cope with the immense future competitions that I am going to face)

The question is if colleges use AA to create balance and diversity (which I think it’s completely understandable and should be encouraged), shouldn’t they look at applicants’ childhoods and cultural backgrounds instead of their ethnicities? As an Asian-Canadian (also have African-American and Hispanic, and white friends), I can confidently say that in most cases, the social environment and where people are brought up determine a lot of what race a person identify with. For example, if an Asian is raised in US and received education there, he/she will have more traits of an American than Asian and wouldn’t it be more sensible to place he/she in the same pool of the rest of the American applicants since they all have the same cultural background? You can’t expect people to be like their ethics’ stereotypes when they are raised in a complete different setting. I am not being bitter about AA, I just would like to know you guys’ thoughts.

interesting article by former Cornell prof on Ivy League Affirmative Action
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418530/what-ivy-league-affirmative-action-really-looks-inside-david-french

^^ Sounds like an angry conservative. Sad that he’ll never know what it is like growing up as a black or latino…

Re#1808: unless I’m mistaken he probably served on the admissions committee of the law school, not undergrad admissions.

Question:
Hispanic paternal grandparents (maternal grandparents another minority); father “left” (never to return) about 10 years ago, kid doesn’t speak Spanish. Is the kid half Hispanic?

^ No, he’s ¼ Hispanic.

His grandparents are Hispanic on the dad’s side, something else on mom’s side.
Which makes his father ½ Hispanic and ½ whatever his mom is
Which makes the son is ¼ Hispanic, ¼ whatever his grandmother is, and ½ whatever he gets from his mother.

I’ve been reading a bit of this thread and I kinda think that arguing about the problems of institutionalized racism is kind of futile and if you don’t understand that AA is in most cases deserved then there’s point attempting to argue.

My question (and honestly it was probably answered somehwere down the line but I just want a bit of good discussion): What is stopping me as an Asian ORM from self identifying as white? Yes, I am not physically white but what is really stopping me from exluding myself from more competition to top tier schools? I am more concerned about the ideal of self identification, rather than the obvious problem of my skin color not being white.

Also: do I have to self identify/report as Asian American (can I opt to not report race / will this hurt or help if I’m asian)? and does reporting that you know more than one language help or hurt?

^^ If you self-report as white then you’d be lying if you’re actually Asian. You might as well get the maximum bang for your buck and say you are a URM. You can also put down a bunch of EC’s that are a total fabrication. Apart from possibly getting caught, if you don’t see what’s wrong with their behavior then you have much bigger issues than being an Asian training to get into college.

You don’t have to report your race. No one really say can say if this affects your application or not. Knowing more than one language has to be plus unless, for example, your last name is Japanese sounding and you’re fluent in Japanese and but you self-report as white…

Being Asian can be a plus for admissions at some schools, notably those that lots of other Asians are not applying to…midwest LACs (maybe LACs in general). My brother got a bump that way. (we can only guess it was a bump…it was a competitive LAC in the midwest with few Asians and he had below average stats for that school).

I agree skipping the race question completely is probably the way to go for most people who for whatever reason would rather not say. Definitely beats lying.

What do people suggest for top tiers then? no report or report as asian?

I think we should just declare everybody white, then all our race problems will go away.

Short of that, we should just make all the Ivies+SM 100% URM, since we’ve been told over and over again that URMs benefit more than anyone else if they graduate from one of these schools. This will continue until racial equality is achieved.

@MLM: I’m actually concerned because that kid doesn’t speak Spanish. (Kid learned English and the mother’s native tongue, took two years of Spanish in school but refused to go further due to father abandonment issues.) The kid is very conflicted about checking “Hispanic” and if the college were to say something like “you don’t even speak Spanish, you’re not truly Hispanic” it’d add to the stress and drama.

More general question:
If the grand parents are Hispanic, isn’t the father considered Hispanic too?