<p>^ Yes, actually an inquiry into that specific case would make clear what happened in the admission office when the overall application file was reviewed. Since the inquiry was expanded, many other files are being reviewed, and the inquiry has indeed persisted from one presidential administration into another. There are some tricky political considerations involved here, because not all Americans are of the same mind about what the correct policy should be in such issues.</p>
<p>Re 31</p>
<p>It is misleading to point to Princeton’s Common Data Sets as evidence against tokenadult’s statement, “colleges really, truly aren’t expected to guess student ethnicity.” To do so is to avoid recent trends. While the Common Data Sets before 2006-2007 show “0” for race/ethnicity unknown, the sets for 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 both show ~10% and ~18% race/ethnicity unknown. At best, you can say that Princeton used to fudge missing race/ethnicity data, but it no longer does.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not aware that anyone posting to this thread is advocating that anyone’s experience should be disregarded while setting policy for college admission. No one has made the suggestion that you label nonsense. </p>
<p>To show my interest in this issue, what kind of disadvantages did you have in mind specifically regarding African American applicants to colleges? You mentioned family wealth in your earlier post, and I agree with you that family wealth is an issue that colleges ought to consider when choosing applicants to be admitted to college. What other disadvantages do you have in mind? How do those disadvantages influence individual college applicants, and what do you think colleges should do about those? (This thread is labeled, after all, “FAQ & Discussion,” so I am happy to engage in civil, informative discussion with anyone posting here.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You seem to be suggesting that there’s a contradiction or problem with the statistics, but is there? The employer is arguing that from a statistical perspective, when you control for qualifications, the probability of hiring is comparable. You’re saying that the “non-hypothetical real world” hiring rates are not at all comparable. But how do you know that the blacks and whites you’re talking about in fact had similar qualifications?</p>
<p>Re 37</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If it’s the poor you’re concerned about, then why assign preference based on racial classification? That seems an inefficient way to solve the problem, which your posts suggest is poverty or at the very least less wealth.</p>
<p>If racism is the problem, then I can see why some would feel that racial preferences are the solution. (I disagree, of course.) But if poverty is the problem, then how does racial preference solve that? We have seen the consequences of this belief, as black immigrants or their children are in fact [url=<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/01/black]“overrepresented”[/url">http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/01/black]"overrepresented”[/url</a>] at all categories of selective schools, where the benchmark for comparison is the percentage of black immigrants or their children within the black racial classification.</p>
<p>To illustrate, “[o]f all black people aged 18 or 19 in the United States, about 13 percent are first- or second-generation immigrants.” However, they make up “27 percent of black students at the selective colleges [studied by the authors],” resulting in an “overrepresentation” of over 100%! Even more tellingly, they make up 40.6% of all black students at Ivy League schools!</p>
<p>As I said, this is what happens when you use racial preferences to solve a socioeconomic problem; in other words, you solved nothing!</p>
<p>“I agree and in the future I sincerely hope that race is completely disregarded as an admission factor. It is inherently discriminatory…”</p>
<p>People are very clearly arguing that race should be disregarded as a factor in admission.</p>
<p>And also advocating moral or political agendas…</p>
<p>"I find it interesting, and full of good hope for this country’s future, that more and more college applicants are declining to self-report their ethnicity to colleges,</p>
<p>And again, African Americans are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to college access and it’s much deeper than income.</p>
<p>• Percentage of white children ages 12 to 17 in 2006 who participated in a sport after school or outside of school: 51.0%
• Percentage of black children ages 12 to 17 in 2006 who participated in a sport after school or outside of school: 36.8%
Percentage of all white high school seniors in 2004 elected to an academic honor society: 26.2%
• Percentage of all African-American high school seniors in 2004 elected to an academic honor society: 13.1%
(U.S. Department of Education)</p>
<p>• Percentage of white Americans who believe that blacks have an equal chance with whites to secure a good education: 80%
• Percentage of black Americans who believe that blacks have an equal chance with whites to secure a good education: 49%
(Gallup/USA Today poll)</p>
<p>• Percentage of white first-year college students in 2004 who had a high-school grade point average between 3.5 and 4.0: 37.9%
• Percentage of black first-year college students in 2004 who had a high-school grade point average between 3.5 and 4.0: 16.0%
(U.S. Department of Education)</p>
<p>Percentage of all white parents in 2007 who reported that their local school provided information on helping their children plan for college: 71%
• Percentage of all African-American parents in 2007 who reported that their local school provided information on helping their children plan for college: 63%
(U.S. Department of Education)
• Percentage of all white parents in 2007 who reported that they attended a school or class event: 80%
• Percentage of all African-American parents in 2007 who reported that they attended a school or class event: 65%
(U.S. Department of Education)</p>
<p>• Percentage of all white parents in 2007 who reported that they were “very satisfied” with their children’s school: 64%
• Percentage of all black parents in 2007 who reported that they were “very satisfied” with their children’s school: 47%
(U.S. Department of Education)</p>
<p>• Percentage of white parents of preschool children in 2007 who believe that it is important to teach their children the alphabet: 66%
• Percentage of black parents of preschool children in 2007 who believe that it is important to teach their children the alphabet: 43%
(U.S. Department of Education)</p>
<p>• Percentage of white parents of preschool children in 2007 who believe that it is important to teach their children about numbers: 62%
• Percentage of black parents of preschool children in 2007 who believe that it is important to teach their children about numbers: 43%
(U.S. Department of Education)</p>
<p>• Percentage of white parents of preschool children in 2007 who read to their children every day: 67%
• Percentage of black parents of preschool children in 2007 who read to their children every day: 35%
(
•
Percentage of all white children in the United States who are being raised in married-couple families: 75%
• Percentage of all black children in the United States who are being raised in married-couple families: 34%
(U.S. Census Bureau)• Percentage of all white students in K-12 education in Georgia in 2004 who were identified as “gifted”: 13.6%
• Percentage of all black students in K-12 education in Georgia in 2004 who were identified as “gifted”: 3.7%
(U.S. Department of Education)
• Number of hate crime incidents reported in the nation’s public schools during the 2003-04 academic year: 6,383
(U.S. Department of Education) Percentage of all American households that had difficulty obtaining enough food in 2007: 12.2%
• Percentage of all African-American households that had difficulty obtaining enough food in 2007: 22.2%
(U.S. Department of Agriculture)• Black percentage of the total faculty and research staff at all of the nation’s degree-granting institutions of higher education in 2005: 5.9%
• Black percentage of the nonprofessional work force at all of the nation’s degree-granting institutions of higher education in 2005: 17.2%
(U.S. Department of Education)
• Percentage of white adults who own a pet: 67%
• Percentage of African-American adults who own a pet: 35%
(Harris Poll) Percentage of all white American women who gave birth in 2006 who were unmarried: 26.6%
• Percentage of all African-American women who gave birth in 2006 who were unmarried: 70.7%
(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)</p>
<p>• Percentage of all white American babies who were born in 2006 who were at least three weeks early: 11.7%
• Percentage of all African-American babies who were born in 2006 who were at least three weeks early: 18.4%
(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)</p>
<p>• Percentage of all white babies born in 2006 who were under 51/2 pounds at birth: 7.3%
• Percentage of all African-American babies born in 2006 who were under 51/2 pounds at birth: 14.0%
(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)</p>
<p>speedo, I don’t entirely disagree with you, but don’t you think a lot of those distinctions would be similar if the two groups were those above and below the poverty limit, as opposed to white and black?</p>
<p>^ Hunt, I wonder about some of that too, as I have seen sociological studies of poor white people contrasted with wealthier white people, and some of the advantages reported may be advantages of wealth rather than advantages of “race,” as such. </p>
<p>But for speedo, what would be a good way to tackle some of those issues that are precollege issues? I agree that there is genuine disadvantage, appallingly great in many cases, for black American young people in many K-12 school systems. The nub of the issue then is to figure out whether influencing college admission policies will do all that is necessary to relieve those disadvantages, or whether something else might be more effective. (My interest in education policy extends from preschool on up to graduate school, and I’m not entirely sure that only attending to college admission policies is enough.) Just as an example, I was married to my wife when each of our four children was born, and we read to our preschool-age children every day. What exactly could I do to help my neighbors enjoy the same advantages? </p>
<p>AFTER EDIT: I see a lot of mentions of the United States Department of Education as a source for the figures in post #46, and I wonder if there is a Web link that leads to some or all of those figures? Some of the individual figures are surprising, and I wonder how they were gathered.</p>
<p>Hunt</p>
<p>That’s no doubt been argued and probably will be, but the weight of evidence is so huge and comprehensive, it’s hard to put it all down to income or lack of it. Stretching credibility for the sake of an excuse. I think we have to come to the sad conclusion that racism/cultural differences still impacts our society and shows up in various ways higher up in the food chain - at the higher ed level</p>
<p>token adult</p>
<p>What to do about these kinds of issues is beyond me, although I spent many years at very low paying teaching jobs trying. I suspect the election of Obama is “full of good hope for America’s future” I do think it is important though that ethnicity be reported and that colleges maintain accurate figures in that department. It says a lot about a college and a society when Berkeley reports a 4% and dropping African American enrollment figure. It’s important information. On a personal level, I recommend reading the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. I found that particular journal helpful and a potent antidote to the many hours I spend talking high end college experience here on CC. But I value that too.</p>
<p>The info is from the jbhe vital statistics section</p>
<p>^ Thanks for the pointer to where the statistics come from. </p>
<p>[JBHE:</a> Vital Statistics](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/vital/index.html]JBHE:”>http://www.jbhe.com/vital/index.html) </p>
<p>I, too, like reading the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. Indeed, the article from the Latest News section currently posted </p>
<p>[JBHE:</a> Latest News for 11/5/09](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index.html]JBHE:”>http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index.html) </p>
<p>about enrollment of low-income students is of particular interest to me.</p>
<p>You haven’t told me what I should with the knowledge that someone actively lied about his race to get into a top school. According to my son, his behavior has become a “well-known” fact (among many other students at our HS, but not the adminstration) since the time the particular student got into college.</p>
<p>^Gee, I wonder how that compares with all the over-advantaged, in-the-know,well-heeled students who are not URM’s who lie and distort their activities in their resumes, sometimes going so far as to claim prizes not rec’d, club positions not held, community svc. not completed, etc.</p>
<p>…because I find both tendencies from these separate segments equally despicable.</p>
<p>limabeans</p>
<p>What is wrong about picking up the phone and talking to the school counselor about a destructive rumor that little Joey came home from school with a while back? If it is common knowledge among the students, it may well be common knowledge among the faculty and administration as well. Even if it is news to them, they are the ones in a position to investigate and act on it.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>I am generally in favor of reporting liars, otherwise the “system” will lack integrity, which leads to more cynicism about the fairness of the process.</p>
<p>If racial diversity matters to a college, one would expect that they would have some sort of checks and outreach mechanisms in place to be sure they are getting who they think they are getting. Maybe a URM at an elite college can speak to this.</p>
<p>^ I thought (from posts by another participant on CC) that colleges frequently send out invitations to Diversity Day events or the like to admitted students who have not yet enrolled, which lets students find students of similar backgrounds–and just may reveal students who are dissimilar from their claimed backgrounds. I don’t know how this always works in practice. </p>
<p>I do know one case, from my professional school days quite a while ago, of a blond, fair-skinned young man who was definitely “black” by the “one-drop rule,” and whose dad would be socially identified as black by most any American, who checked off both “white” and “black” on his application form, and somehow got connected with the black student group on campus. Some other students tried to organize protests about his presence on campus, because he didn’t LOOK “black,” and it was assumed that he had received preferential admission consideration. But, inasmuch as his dad plainly was black, and inasmuch as he was a nice guy and not trying to cause anyone any problems, the protests fizzled out.</p>
<p>^Yes, they do send out those invites, but naturally there’s no requirement to attend. However, I would imagine that ultimately it could be difficult to shield oneself from scrutiny in some form or another.</p>
<p>I have a question…</p>
<p>I am adopted from Korea, so that makes me Korean. But my adoptive parents are White, and Jewish (making me Jewish too). Would that be “religion”? What’s the difference between ethnicity, “racial diversity”, and all of that stuff? Would you consider being “Jewish” a “race” because it is “diverse”?</p>
<p>Judaism is a religion. No? “Jewish” is not a race. How can it be?
The consensus seems to be race is defined as whatever you the applicant see fit.</p>
<p>Here is an interesting recent law review article on the subject of affirmative action and changing racial demographics in the US</p>
<p><a href=“http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/lawjournal/issues/volume69/number6/Brown&Bell.pdf[/url]”>http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/lawjournal/issues/volume69/number6/Brown&Bell.pdf</a></p>