<p>Tell that to Bill Gates. Or Warren Buffett. Or Carlos Slim.</p>
<p>You know, I’m starting to think that, due to an overbearing focus on extracurriculars in the Ivies, along with affirmative action, etc, I don’t think academics even matter up there anymore, when compared to the colleges just below them. They’re now just “building a class” every year, so it’s usually a matter of either race (and not Asian race), luck, or culture, not academics. Therefore, we now see people with straight Bs from nowhere get in because of where they grew up, what sport they played, because they’re URM, while people with straight As in their most challenging courseload, 2400s on SAT, 5s on APs, and other top academic achievements are rejected. Just my observations.</p>
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<p>Something like that is true. It is also true of groups other than Asians (that looking at subpopulations is more relevant), but the effect is sharper for Asians where the subpopulations are more clearly marked by race, income, education and immigration pattern, and those markers correlate with each other. For example, there is a big difference in academic attainment between poor and low-performing groups from SE Asia (children of Cambodian peasants), moderate-performing groups (non-Chinese from Philippines or Vietnam) and high-performing high income groups (Chinese and Indian engineer/PhD immigrants’ children, Koreans). </p>
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<p>To some extent and in some statistical sense (ie., true on average but not necessarily the case for each individual), yes. If you are raised with high, early and intensive parental investment in education, attend the top public or private schools, and your exposure to math, languages, music (or some form of academic work and parental expectations thereof) starts four or more years earlier than other students, then of course there should be a large academic boost as measured by SAT. The same is true for GPA, courseload, AP exams, low- and mid-level academic competition results (but not the higher levels; they progressively de-correlate with parental pushing strategies as you go up the selection ladder).</p>
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<p>That’s right. By the federal definition, Hispanic people can be of any race (including more than one race for one person). All the colleges in the land are supposed to ask a two-part question like that this year, because of the new federal regulation </p>
<p>[U.S</a>. Department of Education; Office of the Secretary; Final Guidance on Maintaining, Collecting, and Reporting Racial and Ethnic Data to the U.S. Department of Education [OS]](<a href=“http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/101907c.html]U.S”>http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2007-4/101907c.html) </p>
<p>that just came into effect this application cycle. </p>
<p>Good luck in your applications.</p>
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<p>This is from the thread-opening post of the originally separate thread that was just merged into this FAQ thread. There have been interesting comments to the first post. I’ll note that this kind of cultural influence wouldn’t be available to all children in all families, and that is one of the things that admission committees attempt to get at with efforts to have a “holistic” admission process. </p>
<p>Good luck getting ready for college and in preparing your applications when the time comes for that.</p>
<p>I feel that URM’s get a boost at top colleges b/c many of their parents did not go to college and have “ok” jobs. If I a URM, say hispanic female, came from an upper middle class family or prosperous family, whose parents went to great colleges and had high paying jobs, would she really have that much of a boost?
Don’t top colleges look at the overall picture? Can you really play the URM card if you came from a family where education was highly valued?
Just wondering!!!</p>
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<p>What some college admission officers say about why they regard student ethnicity in the admission process is summarized in some recent books, mentioned above in [post</a> #14](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063506918-post14.html]post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063506918-post14.html) above. But maybe not every college takes the same point of view. What you can do when you apply is describe any facts about your own situation that make clear that you are doing the best you can from your background (which is always the wise thing to do as a high school student) and what is unique about your background. How colleges weigh admission factors is up to each college. </p>
<p>Good luck in your applications.</p>
<p>Interesting article from 2006: </p>
<p>[Human</a> Family Tree: Shallow Roots](<a href=“http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2006/07/71298]Human”>Human Family Tree: Shallow Roots | WIRED) </p>
<p>A related Wikipedia article provides more details: </p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor</a></p>
<p>Re 149</p>
<p>I have found that link to be illuminating. It seems to have no texts critical of racial preferences. Given such an attitude, I now understand why some arguments I have encountered from pro-racial preference people over the years seem to never die: these people do not understand how their opponents think!</p>
<p>To paraphrase Sunzi, if you know yourself but not your opponent, you will lose a battle for every one that you win. These people definitely know themselves. They can articulately highlight all the reasons why we should, nay must, have racial preferences. But ask them to play Devil’s Advocate, and if they are at all able to respond, they will resort to straw men arguments that no opponent would ever acknowledge.</p>
<p>As a sidenote, one of my friends is a hardcore Taiwanese Independence advocate. But, if asked why someone should support unification instead of independence, he can readily answer with very sound reasons. He knows himself and his opponents. Would that more racial preference supporters had that ability. Our discussions would be more productive.</p>
<p>^ What would be examples of published books that take a different point of view from the books mentioned in the book list posted in [post</a> #14](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063506918-post14.html]post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063506918-post14.html) and referred to again in post #149?</p>
<p>^</p>
<p>Of the books I’ve read, I think the best that takes a different point of view than the ones mentioned in the link is [Affirmative</a> Action Around the World: An Empirical Study](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Affirmative-Action-Around-World-Empirical/dp/0300107757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259536306&sr=8-1]Affirmative”>http://www.amazon.com/Affirmative-Action-Around-World-Empirical/dp/0300107757/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259536306&sr=8-1) by Thomas Sowell. He documents the effects of affirmative action policies in India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, and the U.S., two of which seem universal: the policies favor the elites within the preferred groups, not the downtrodden; and the policies all last longer than they were intended to. I acknowledge that not everyone will find his work compelling, but at the very least, it is a different perspective that was utterly absent from the reading list.</p>
<p>A close second is [A</a> Dream Deferred](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Deferred-Betrayal-Freedom-America/dp/0060931043/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259536257&sr=1-5]A”>http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Deferred-Betrayal-Freedom-America/dp/0060931043/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259536257&sr=1-5) by Shelby Steele. When I first borrowed it several years ago, I found that his “white guilt” hypothesis explained many of the behaviors I had encountered here while discussing affirmative action. Again, I accept that not everyone will agree with him, but just as with Sowell’s book, he provides a perspective different from, say, William Bowen’s.</p>
<p>Dinesh D’Souza used to (still does?) debate affirmative action with Tim Wise. I haven’t read any of his books, but I’m sure they’d also provide that different perspective.</p>
<p>^ Thanks for the book recommendations. I have not read either. I see one isn’t even available in my county library system. :(</p>
<p>New York Times article on the job search after college graduation: </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html</a></p>
<p>So I am a freshman at Yale and something has been bothering me ALOT lately. Everyone here was valedictorian or salutorian of thier high school and I wasn’t I had a bad rank. So I have been wondering if I got into Yale because of Affirmative action. I would like everyone’s (especially Asians who face a tough time due to race) honest opinion on whether I got into Yale because of AA, please be honest. </p>
<p>Rank:13/476
GPA: 3.89
SAT: didn’t submit
ACT: 34 (36 R, 35 M, 32 E, 31 S)
SAT 2:didn’t send in</p>
<p>Forgot about Aps: English Lang, Comp Sci, Chemistry, US History, Physics B, Calculus AB (couldn’t take BC bc of Stat), Statistics, Biology, Economics, English Lit, Gov
Work Experience</p>
<p>6/1/07-7/25/07 Target (Missouri City, TX) 30 hrs/week
6/7/08-8/22/08 16 hrs/week
Employee Food Ave.
Mitigate customer relations problems
Provide high-quality food service</p>
<p>Activities</p>
<p>9th-11th Independent Science Research
Conducted individual research on atomic physics</p>
<p>10th-12th Forensics Team 30 hrs/week
Member(10th-11th), Team Captain(12th) 25 weeks/year
Participated in Lincoln-Douglass Debate and Extemporaneous Speaking
Instructed novice debaters</p>
<p>9th-12th Trumpet Player</p>
<p>9th -10th High School Football Team 20 hrs/week
Linebacker, Kickoff, and Receiving Team 36 weeks/year
Directed the Defensive formation
(Quit because of wrist surgery)</p>
<p>11th-12th Science Honor Society 6 hrs/week
Member(11th), Parliamentarian(12th) 15 weeks/year
Judged local science fairs
Participated in community service for science related endeavors</p>
<p>Athletic Awards</p>
<p>9th District Runner-Up Football
2nd Place in district
10th District Champions Football
1st Place in district</p>
<p>Musical Awards
9th
Dallas Lone Star Showcase of Music Outstanding in Division Award
University Interscholastic League Concert Sight-Reading Award
10th
San Francisco Musical Showcase Participant
University Interscholastic League Performance Award</p>
<p>Speech & Debate Awards</p>
<p>10th
State Qualifier in Lincoln Douglass Debate
5th Place Team Texas Forensic League State Tournament
1st place University of Texas Longhorn Classic Tournament
1st Place Aldine Debate Tournament
National Forensic League Distinction Honor</p>
<p>11th
State Qualifier in Lincoln Douglass Debate
State Quarterfinalist Extemporaneous Speaking
3rd Place University Interscholastic League District Extemporaneous Speaking
6th Place National Forensic League District Extemporaneous Speaking
National Forensic League Special Distinction Honor</p>
<p>Science Research Awards</p>
<p>9th
Fort Bend Outstanding Achievement in Science Award</p>
<p>10th
Fort Bend Outstanding Achievement in Science Award
Elkins High School Top Chemistry Student Honor</p>
<p>11th
Evaluation of Photon Tunneling Probability by Spatial Variation published by The Society for Amateur Scientists
4th Place American Physics Society-Texas Chapter
Jacobs Engineering Science Research Award
4th Place Science and Engineering Fair of Houston
Fort Bend Outstanding Achievement in Science Award
Elkins High School Top Chemistry Student Honor</p>
<p>Distinctive Research:</p>
<p>9th Quantitative Analysis of Electron Transition in Helium</p>
<p>Yes, you would have gotten in! Your cv is impressive. Especially the research, but also ECs, honors, APs. GPA and rank are fine.
-Ivy Leaguer</p>
<p>You’ve done research; you have great extracurriculars. Acceptance at Yale is a crapshoot. With your ACT, you’re at the 75th percentile for acceptance. Not everyone was Val/Sal when you look at the stats but I can understand where it feels that way. Stop beating yourself up (I’ve seen you post along these lines before); you’re very accomplished and could get into great schools on your own merits regardless of skin color. A girl from my kids high school last year was accepted to Yale and she was not Val/Sal either (but she went to Northwestern instead…)</p>
<p>On the Yale forum:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/815016-would-i-have-gotten-if-i-were-not-black-2.html?highlight=dbate[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/815016-would-i-have-gotten-if-i-were-not-black-2.html?highlight=dbate</a></p>
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<p>Then why did you start THIS thread?</p>
<p>Because it is still bothering me. I went to the career services office and on the sample resumes they had slots to input class rank and everyone was like literally number 1 or 2, and it made me feel REALLY bad.</p>
<p>Dbate, I think you deserved to be admitted. But even if your race helped you, so what? How would that differ from the Asian tennis player whose application received a boost? Or the white student from Wyoming whose was helped because he came from a state with few applicants? No American schoool admits based on grades and test scores alone. Obviously, you’re adding something to Yale beyond grades that they wanted. It’s hyperbole for you to say everyone was ranked first or second. You were 13th in a big school. That’s very impressive! </p>
<p>Instead of worrying about things like this, just focus on the good you can accomplish with an education from Yale. The world is truly your oyster. </p>
<p>Good luck at Yale!</p>
<p>You didn’t get into Yale because of affirmative action; you got in because of your impressive stats and resume.</p>