"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 7

<p>Shrinkrap, I’m asking you since diversity seems to be a big deal to you, and you happen to be African American.</p>

<p>I can’t ask you to view it from an Asian’s or a Caucasian’s perspective, because that’d be asking the impossible. </p>

<p>However, if what you want is “diversity,” and not benefits for African Americans, would you support an AA policy that seeked to raise Asian representation in professional California if it meant that it came at the expense of African Americans?</p>

<p>I don’t see why you can’t answer that question.</p>

<p>I could ask fabrizio the same question, but he</p>

<ol>
<li>publicly proclaimed that he’s against it </li>
</ol>

<p>and </p>

<ol>
<li>he’s presumably white, so whether he is against it because of ethnicity or of his ideology or of a combination of both, it wouldn’t make much of a difference because it is already the state of things.</li>
</ol>

<p>^^I thought fabrizio said he was Asian at one point. I don’t remember for sure.</p>

<p>^
Yes, I’m ethnic Chinese.</p>

<p>^^
antonioray, in the past, I have stated that I would continue to oppose the use of racial classification in college admissions even if doing so reduced Asian admissions. To me, treating people without regard to their racial classification is paramount.</p>

<p>If you think that somebody is a completely insane racist for even asking questions about racial generalities, then you shouldn’t even post anything here because someone so closed off to the possibilities of where evidence might lead has no place in a rational discussion.</p>

<p>The reason such topics are relevant is that so much social policy and educational spending is based on the premise that each group is exactly the same, and if there are different outcomes for different groups, then something is seriously amiss and must be rectified by the government or other organizations (e.g., private schools).</p>

<p>NOBODY is saying generalities among groups should have anything impact on how individuals should be evaluated.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m not sure if this is directed at me or at Hopeful saying that “in general…”</p>

<p>but if “nobody is saying generalities among groups should have anything(sic) impact on how individuals should be evaluated,” then why bring it up?</p>

<p>from my limited time here, almost every case made in the name of “socioeconomic disadvantages” has stated and restated in different forms of “in general, African Americans come from less prosperous backgrounds…”</p>

<p>And in my opinion, that can only be expressed in general terms, which is exactly why it’s wrong.</p>

<p>Colleges are not considering the entire African American population for admission; they are viewing a select few African American applicants.</p>

<p>The same goes for Asians, Caucasians, Hispanics, etc.</p>

<p>As a side note: how is prop 209 enforced? Does it apply to only UC’s or also USC, Stanford, etc? I ask because even though those schools are not public institutions, tokenadult has pointed out that “any institution receiving federal [or in this case, California] funds” is subject.</p>

<p>That being said, I can’t imagine how a law prohibits adcoms from thinking about ethnicity. Who can really contest whether an African American should or should not have been admitted?</p>

<p>Which leads me to think that as long as admissions and employment are discretionary and discriminant, AA can’t truly be upheld or prohibited.</p>

<p>“However, if what you want is “diversity,” and not benefits for African Americans, would you support an AA policy that seeked to raise Asian representation in professional California if it meant that it came at the expense of African Americans?”</p>

<p>Are those my only two choices? What is “Asian” anyway? Can I choose Korean, Vietnamese, Indian, Pakistani? If “Chinese”, what part? last week someone asked me if I was from Fiji. Sigh. Well… I’ll take any pigment I can get.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>How about this: </p>

<p>An AA policy that will raise representation of EVERY group except African Americans at the expense of African Americans.</p>

<p>Would you support it, if it helped diversity?</p>

<p>the NBA is at least 85% black. What if it started balancing the teams’ rosters out, for diversity’s sake?</p>

<p>It will increase diversity, sure, but it could also (and probably would) result in a decrease in quality. I’m not saying White players are inferior but…</p>

<p>The same thing happens in college admissions and employment, wouldnt you agree?</p>

<p>You could substitute any field in for the NBA.
You might say you wouldn’t have a problem with the NBA implementing such a policy because it neither benefits nor hinders you directly.</p>

<p>But then you refuse to let AA die in the college process because it benefits your daughter directly and does not hinder her at all.</p>

<p>Is it really for diversity’s sake?</p>

<p>I’ll take increased NBA diversity for $400.</p>

<p>really?</p>

<p>What if AA in college processes only elected to increase Hispanic and Native American representations.</p>

<p>Would you support that?</p>

<p>There was no need to edit in the Jeopardy allusion. It didn’t make your answer any more cogent.</p>

<p>Did you decide in favor of NBA diversity for the reason I detailed in 550?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The only argument I’ve seen about AA in the NBA (or perhaps it was the NFL), and this was a few years ago, was that African Americans were under-represented out of court, and steps should be taken to increase their representation in the offices.</p>

<p>When colleges classify a refugee from Sri Lanka, the son from a Vietnamese grocery store worker, and the daughter of a Chinese doctor are basically the same, “Asian”, while the child of an African American school teacher and an RN from a suburban school somehow contributes a lot to diversity, it’s pretty clear that diversity is a tool rather than the reason, and it will be the mantra that is repeated by those who take advantage of it too.</p>

<p>There was a new story a couple of days ago when an all white sorority won a step dancing competition in a traditionally African American competition. They were greeted with boos and there were no cheers for providing diversity. Rather there were questions on whether the whites should even be allowed to participate.
[White</a> team’s ‘stepping’ win sparks uproar](<a href=“404 Not Found”>White team’s ‘stepping’ win sparks uproar)</p>

<p>I have seen so many of these threads and they seem to be pointless because everyone argues the same statements and facts over and over again. Could there be some other kind of way that people can get ouut their frustration with race, AA, and other issues by not creating the same thread over and over again.</p>

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</p>

<p>I see from your join date that you didn’t see the way things were in the old days, when any informational question about how to fill out a college application form turned into a flame war–and didn’t provide accurate information either. The simple fact is that people care about this issue in the context of college admission, the subject of this forum, and many people care about the broader context of the issue, perhaps because of [memories</a> of earlier eras in the civil rights movement](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064033898-post10.html]memories”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064033898-post10.html). The easiest way to not be bothered by threads you don’t like is not to read them. The hard way is to make a substantive, helpful post that changes the tone of the discussion.</p>

<p>Is it just me, or is Affirmative Action extremely blatant at MIT this year?</p>

<p>Well, I actually like AA. I just hope they give arabs some respect and give us our own “race” category on college applications. For the millionth time, we are not white. The lebanese/syrians/palestinians/Iraqis may appear white (even then some, not all), but you just cant call a man from saudi arabia, or the UAE, or Qatar, or Kuwait, or Bahrain “white”. Its like merging latino/hispanic, and calling it “white” on college applications!</p>

<p>Fabrizo, you have asked me to cite studies that show diversity by itself is a good thing. Trust me, (better yet, dont trust me but do the math) there are many many studies. Earlier in this fourm I think it was tokenadult who posted at least 5 or 6 of them. Mostly academia but two from private sector.
Now before you go and attack each and everyone slow down. Because I, like you question the accuracy of the stated outcomes. just as I question the outcome of the many studies that say there is no discernible merit to diversity. Like most studies, a true unbiased study is truly hard to come by. I havent seen one yet.
So that leaves us with a question of choice.
Knowing that there are some schools that believe a diverse class will benefit all, If you value diversity, than it makes perfect sense for one to apply there. On the other hand, if your judgement conflicts with the beliefs of the school than of course not applying becomes an option. Or applying and at the same time making it known that you do not agree with the schools policy.
You may not believe this but to be truthful, I have not made up my mind yet on how desirable diversity is. And if it is desirable, at what cost.
But again that is and should be the focus.
If I look at things in the extreme, I would think that someone who attends an all white college, may miss out on perspectives given by others who will by nature will bring a different point of view. I therefore would not apply to such a college. My heart and head both tell me that a diverse class will bring differing attitudes, values, experiences, and points of view that I believe will foster a better educational experience. So while I lean to diversity is a good thing, I am not sure how to obtain it or what the cost would be.</p>

<p>All all-white colleges are so because of institutional policies. In that case, African Americans wouldn’t be able to apply anyway.</p>

<p>Would you, jfl, oppose a school with a 60%-30%-5%-5% W-A-H-B breakdown?</p>

<p>Also, it has been estahblished that the diversity rationale is flawed because it merely considers aesthetic diversity.</p>

<p>Would you say a Vietnamese girl who has extensive travel experience contributes to the heterogeneousness of a campus? Or would she just be “another Asian?”</p>

<p>These minorities don’t have a right to live in this country.</p>

<p>If black people think life is America is so bad they should get on a boat back to Africa. They were the biggest beneficiaries of slavery–why give them extra benefits with affirmative action?</p>

<p>(P.S. This is satire. Chill out people.)</p>

<p>In America especially, the pressure to fit in is one which unifies a teenage culture, diminishing cultural diversity with each successive generation. Indeed, this has been going on so long that i don’t know what kind of diversity skin color provides besides a superficial one. Racism isn’t nearly as prevalent as it was 40 years ago, so what unique perspective do minorities have to offer that the majority can’t provide? If anyone should be given an advantage it should be first-gen students, students of a low-socioeconomic background, and internationals ; since Internationals DO offer culturally-diverse personalities.</p>

<p>Personally, I’m a decently strong student and I won’t even LOOK AT colleges woth more than 70& white population. I like diversity :)</p>

<p>^Please give me some link to that statement above attributed to Bill O’Reilly.</p>