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<p>Then why keep racial preferences? According to your post, the aims of the policy seem to be largely subsumed by socioeconomic preferences. Why keep an ineffective and controversial program?</p>
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<p>I’m going to ask you explicitly to back up that statement with evidence from reliable sources. I make that request because </p>
<p>1) it is well known that some colleges entirely decline to consider race in the admission process, by state law, </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>2) for any college, public or private, to target a certain enrollment number for students on the basis of race is illegal (by the holding of the Bakke case, for state colleges, and by the dictum in that same case, for private colleges, as further shown by the opinions in subsequent Supreme Court cases). </p>
<p>To be sure, it may be that some colleges act illegally. But if you think some college does, you should gather your evidence and report it to the federal Department of Education Office of Civil Rights </p>
<p>[How</a> to File a Discrimination Complaint with the Office for Civil Rights](<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/howto.html]How”>File a Complaint: Discrimination Form | U.S. Department of Education) </p>
<p>by filing a complaint about racial discrimination at the college. I am sure that quite a few colleges (plural, in multiple parts of the country) could pass through such an inquiry without a finding that the college is making explicit “efforts to ensure that blacks make up a substantial portion of their incoming classes.” If you have verifiable factual statements to the contrary, lay them out, and don’t forget to tell the federal Department of Education about them.</p>
<p>Where do we get the idea that high-performing Asian Americans have it soooo tough getting into good colleges? Do posters believe there are quotas to limit the number? Any legit reports that can be cited? (Not those meant to inflame, not the common media’s 2nd hand hype. Or, sorry, Wiki or about.com.)</p>
<p>For top holistic schools, not all applicants above some bar can- or should- be accepted. There are considerations other than stats.</p>
<p>So, a question: if a college seeks to somewhat mirror the country’s diversity, for whatever reasons, how should they get there? </p>
<p>Recent Census data, US population, roughly: Blacks- 12-13%, Hispanics- 15% and Asians 4%. Princeton’s UG mix: Black 8%, Hispanic 7% and Asian 16%. </p>
<p>Penn is hovering around 11% for Black and for Hispanic, and 20% Asian. I don’t know what these figures suggest. But, I would caution against assuming every minority is chosen regardless of their ability to fit and thrive. Or, that Blacks and Hispanics represent the bottom 50%. Two of the important institutional assessments for top schools are % of freshmen continuing on to 2nd year, at that school, and 6-year grad rate. This doesn’t allow for much experimenting with admits or “feel sorry for them” practices. IMO.</p>
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<p>Yes. So what? The existence and use of subjective criteria does not provide a case that racial classification should be considered.</p>
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<p>“Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s.”</p>
<p>[Do</a> Elite Private Colleges Discriminate Against Asian Students? - US News and World Report](<a href=“U.S. News & World Report: News, Rankings and Analysis on Politics, Education, Healthcare and More”>U.S. News & World Report: News, Rankings and Analysis on Politics, Education, Healthcare and More)</p>
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<p>This is another instance of hypocrisy in affirmative action: Blacks are regarded as more important Hispanic students. </p>
<p>If black and Hispanic students received the same boost, then there would be far more Hispanics in elite schools (because Hispanic are much better students). Colleges, however, give blacks a significantly larger boost than Hispanics, BUT they don’t do this to ensure that blacks and Hispanics are represented in roughly proportional numbers – they do this to ensure that blacks are overrepresented relative to Hispanics. (In other words, colleges overrcorrect the black-Hispanic gap in favor of blacks.) Apparently, blacks bring more diversity to colleges than do Hispanics, an idea which is hypocritical and racist.</p>
<p>(Note: The disparity in treatment between blacks and Hispanics is even worse in law school; Harvard Law School, for instance is 11% black but less than 8% Hispanic, even though Hispanics do much better on the LSAT and have higher colleges GPAs.)</p>
<p>^ Do you have any sources the rest of us can check for assertions about which students are most prepared for further study in college or in law school? Do you have any data at all about which students APPLY to college or to law school?</p>
<p>Here’s an example of a source about college readiness, based on ACT testing: </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.act.org/research/policymakers/cccr11/pdf/ConditionofCollegeandCareerReadiness2011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/research/policymakers/cccr11/pdf/ConditionofCollegeandCareerReadiness2011.pdf</a> </p>
<p>Note that this source says nothing about who applies to college.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/Research/TR/TR-10-03.pdf[/url]”>http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/Research/TR/TR-10-03.pdf</a></p>
<p>Here are estimates of the numbers of black and Hispanic students who score above 170 on the LSAT, a score that is essentially a requirement for admission to elite law schools. (I’ve cited statistical data in case anyone wants to check my work.)</p>
<p>~48 Hispanic (z=2.46, p=.00694)
~7 black students (z=3.26, p=5.57x10^-4)</p>
<p>So as you can see, there are significantly more Hispanic students than blacks who are qualified to attend elite schools. Yet elite schools have significantly more black students. </p>
<p>Either high scoring Hispanic students aren’t applying to elite schools or elite schools are favoring blacks. I can assure you that people who are smart enough to score above 170 on the LSAT are applying to elite schools, so it must be that elite schools are favoring black students. Anecdotal confirms that law schools will relax their standards much more for a black student than a Hispanic student even if they already have significantly more black students.</p>
<p>(Another good discussion of this hypocrisy appears in Justice Rehnquist’s dissent in Grutter v. Bollinger.)</p>
<p>Why can’t we say “better?”</p>
<p>I understand that we live in an era where political correctness is king. However, we must also be able to be free to say what we believe.</p>
<p>Why can’t we say that Asian applicants are “better?” The USNWR cleared said that for the same Academic measurements (GPA, SAT, other testings), Blacks are 15 TIMES more likely to get in as Asians. This simply makes me conclude that Asian students in college are much higher achieving. Test results in MCAT, GMAT, and LSAT support this idea.</p>
<p>^You can say better; just define and defend what it means. So far it means higher LSAT’s. </p>
<p>Transfers, are you saying there are more blacks than Hispanics in college? Sure doesn’t look that way out west. But divide and conquer!</p>
<p>“Blacks are 15 TIMES more likely to get in as Asians”</p>
<p>I think you mean blacks who apply to (the schools you are looking at) have an admit rate 15 times higher than Asians(where is THAT?). </p>
<p>But if you just grab a random black kid, and a random Asian kid, the numbers are quite different, with some pretty interesting changes over the life span. Pull them at birth, at 5, at 10, at 12, at 15 and at 17. I get why that is of no interest to you, but it is to some.</p>
<p>“This simply makes me conclude that Asian students in college are much higher achieving.”</p>
<p>That sounds wonderful! I hope it FEELS wonderful, although I get that many think it’s a curse.</p>
<p>By Hispanic do you mean people from Latin America and the Caribbean or people from Spain and parts of south America?</p>
<p>Replying to several comments above, rapidly, </p>
<p>Thanks for the link to the Law School Admission Council Report. It has been a while since I took my LSAT, and it’s time for me to look at the latest from that organization. </p>
<p>I see mention of a U.S. News and World Report statement, but I don’t see a link to (or citation of) the specific article. Can someone provide that please? </p>
<p>For the definition of the term “Hispanic,” there are federal regulations, which are detailed in the first few posts in this growing FAQ and Discussion thread.</p>
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<p>At elite schools, there typically are more black students, even though the number of qualified Hispanic students is far greater.</p>
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<p>Well if we say that Asians are “better” at school because of innate differences, then that allows the possibility that blacks are “worse” at school because of innate differences. </p>
<p>Liberals in academia have decided that under no circumstances will they even consider the possibility that blacks are less intelligent than Asians or whites, regardless of what evidence and common sense suggest. So instead, they’ve determined a priori that all races are innately equal in terms of intelligent and look for social or cultural factors that may explain black students’ consistently poor performance. (This reasoning is, of course, seriously flawed.)</p>
<p>It seems you are suggesting that the academic achievement of blacks trails that of whites, asians and hispanics because of genetic reasons. If that is so why are african immigrants the most educated group in the country?
[Newsvine</a> - African Immigrants are the most educated group in the US](<a href=“NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News | NBC News”>NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News | NBC News)</p>
<p>^Because maybe well-educated Africans are the ones who are most likely to immigrate to the US?</p>
<p>And I’m not suggesting anything about race and genetics. I was just explaining why we can’t say that Asians are “better” at school than other races.</p>
<p>We can’t say that asians are better at school than other races because this implies that being asian automatically gives one the ability to excel at school. So instead we can say that asians do better at school than other races in general due to cultural traditions that value education more, higher median income, and immigrant work ethic. This statement is supported by statistics that show asians tend to have better SAT scores etc. These disparities however decrease the stability of American society and thus policies are needed to help improve groups disadvantaged by social/economic issues. We just don’t agree on what those policies should be.</p>
<p>“At elite schools, there typically are more black students, even though the number of qualified Hispanic students is far greater.”</p>
<p>Collegeboard says AA/ Hisp percentages</p>
<p>Harvard 6/9
Cornell 5/10
Columbia 14/15
Stanford 8/18
Princeton 7/8
Yale 7/9</p>
<p>Shrinkrap,</p>
<p>You are right about the representation of Hispanics in elite colleges. The data I posted was for law schools, and I assumed the trend held in undergrad, but obviously, it doesn’t. </p>
<p>Here is the data for law schools if you want to look it: <a href=“Search for Law Schools – LSAC Official Guide | The Law School Admission Council”>Search for Law Schools – LSAC Official Guide | The Law School Admission Council;
<p>At almost all elite law schools, there are far more blacks than Hispanics (e.g., 8 vs 4 at Penn, 11 vs 8 at Harvard, 13 vs 11 at Stanford, 9 vs 8 at Yale), even though there are far more qualified (about 7 times as many) Hispanic applicants.</p>