<p>"And affirmative action IS racial discrimination."</p>
<p>Yes, and whether one considers it positive or negative discrimination is in the eye of the beholder. </p>
<p>I think we all assume that when a school checks the Common Data Set box "Racial/ethnic status" "Considered" that the school sees it as positive discrimination.</p>
<p>Which schools check "Not considered"?</p>
<p>Why does everyone assume that any URM doesn't belong there. Do you wear your resume on your clothes? Maybe they do...that's racist to me.</p>
<p>Indeed, vossron. The Supreme Court has made clear that, for now, affirmative action constitutes legal, positive discrimination.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ensuring that people of all colors and physical characteristics are represented in every facet of American life is the only way to deconstruct the heirarchy [sic] and change peoples' perceptions about the equal worth of every individual, no matter what they look like.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ensuring…represent[ation]. I ask you, is that not the very definition of a quota?</p>
<p>Debruns: That's the rub. When a college gives special consideration to people based on skin color, there is no way for one to tell which person with that skin color received special consideration and which did not. If a person who concludes that an URM was the benefactor of affirmative action is racist, as you insist, isn't affirmative action itself also, per se, racist? </p>
<p>In my opinion, one of the reasons AA is wrong is that eclipses the terrific credentials that many URMs possess.</p>
<p>But colleges give a lot of students entry based on many things. I don't believe URMs just bring skin color, they have good grades, hobbies, and other attributes. You can't assume their scores are low, that's not right. Should I assume the California student given a big package to come to the east coast had lower scores than the student from Ct? They shouldn't be held under a microscope. A college admissions officer told me once any student they let in with lower than their average SAT score, most of them did very well. Many students with above average scores floundered for different reasons. Maybe they didn't try hard enough or had adjustments in other areas. They don't want students to fail and no student "takes another's place" All were wanted.
I remember a girl being harassed on a forum because she was going to Brown with a 1300 and was Indian/Black I think. One student said she should be ashamed...then a white student, female from Kentucky got in with similar scores...she said, should we ban students from certain regions also? Cedric Jennings got into Brown with a 980 and graduated with high B's and went onto 2 great colleges for master degrees. Brown had a right to let him in. You can't dictate how a college picks a student. We all are disapointed at some point, when you have so little control. To say they picked a black student for just diversity to me is racist, he/she deserves to be there the same as anyone else. I think every college should have a perfect balance of economic and geographic and racial and religious diversity but that will never exist. The world isn't a bubble and college shouldn't be either.</p>
<p>Old College Try, I understand what you mean, but you shouldn't be thinking that...what does it matter? Do you analyze every worker at a company, and wonder "who did he know?". Nepotism reins at work and some get hired for their resume/experience, some were just lucky and hit the manager on a good day.
I worked for years at a large hospital and saw much discrimation (and law suits) from racism and it spanned lower income workers to doctors. It exists and always will, although I hope it keeps lessening. As a white woman, I overheard so much over the years, many times from people that I would have never guessed held such views.
It saddened me, but I also saw change and I think it will continue to get better.</p>
<p>So the Supreme Court has said race can be a factor, and most colleges clearly want to use this factor, so do people just want to complain and argue about it? It's a done deal without a constitutional amendment.</p>
<p>No one is saying that URMs didn't deserve admission. They almost always meet the qualifications needed to succeed academically at a top school--but so do a lot of other students, many more than there are spaces. How to distinguish? On the basis of "merit," a holistic process that takes into account grades, test scores, ECs, interests/passions, and (yes) diversity of many different kinds. When a URM is holistically judged (disregarding race but taking into consideration socioeconomic status, personal obstacles, etc.) against a non-URM and is considered a lesser applicant, then that person IS a less qualified applicant--because qualifications are relative, not absolute.</p>
<p>Selecting for anything is a form of discrimination; however, most discriminatory classes are not "protected" in the specific legal sense. Race, gender, sexuality, and disability are protected classes (or should be); geographic location, while it does constitute "diversity," is not a protected class. Affirmative action deals with race, which IS a protected class--and I question why "positive" discrimination is justified, because to me, no kind of discrimination of a protected class is ever justified.</p>
<p>As for resentment: YES, it is racist to think that a URM got into a college solely due to their race. This racism, however, is directly perpetuated by affirmative action, which ironically seeks to address and eradicate societal inequalities caused by racism.</p>
<p>vossron: Indeed, it's a done deal. Many things are currently "done deals"--the Defense of Marriage Act, for instance. DOMA's existence has not stopped gay-rights activists from speaking out and raising awareness of the problem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why does everyone assume that any URM doesn't belong there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I DON'T assume that. I'm quite forthright in saying that </p>
<p>a) some underrepresented minority candidates for admission to the most selective colleges can and do get in without any consideration of their ethnicity, </p>
<p>and </p>
<p>b) a few of those even really put the issue to the test by not indicating their ethnicity anywhere in their college application file. </p>
<p>There are a lot of smart URM students. Those who have the lowest socioeconomic status have the worst time getting into a good college, but that is because of poverty and not being familiar with the college admission process, especially. Even if there were no boost at all for low-income students (and perhaps there is not, at present) a system of treating all applicants as fellow human beings not otherwise distinguished by ethnicity would still admit a diverse class to all the most selective colleges and universities in the country. No ethnic group has a monopoly on strong readiness for challenging college studies.</p>
<p>That's true, but what will some students say next...no checking boxes, then no interviews? (they can't see you or they'll know) no address that is primarily in an urban area or listing schools that are, or cultural clubs you might spend a lot of time with, or an award that states a URM status(Martin Luther King scholarship for instance)
It can get a little crazy...I think it can be better but a lot worse also. You can't erase someone's background,where they live, where they worship, how much money they have, it will always be a factor.
I know some white students at my school that are very poor and got great scholarships along with some URM's. Some minorities here have a lot of money you can't lump them together but we are all students trying to get the best education we can and contribute to society.
To be honest, if someone wants to think anything about how I got into college, so be it, I know how I got here, I know who I am and that will have to be enough.</p>
<p>"Many things are currently "done deals""</p>
<p>"Currently" is significant in terms of passing a law or a constitutional amendment, knowing when to fight the fight. If we believe that the future of the country depends on colleges not using race as one of many admissions factors, then we'll fight on. Otherwise we'll fight more important battles.</p>
<p>Who is this "we" that you speak of? Those who agree with you? Those in this thread? The American people? Choose one's battles wisely. I choose to fight actively against personal racism rather than institutional racism; thus I have chosen to fight for expanded, purely socioeconomic affirmative action, in part (though not entirely) because racial affirmative action may or may not help society but definitely hurts the individual.</p>
<p>I purposefully chose "we" on both sides of the issue, trying to illustrate the futility of fighting private colleges' actions.</p>
<p>Private colleges are not the place to begin--the best points of attack, so to speak, are the elite "public Ivies": UCs, Michigan, UVA, UNC, Austin. But I am not a fighter, merely an amateur philosopher.</p>
<p>Okay, so the decisions from all the biggies have come out. I was rejected by Stanford, Cornell, MIT and Caltech but was accepted by Columbia (thank God!), so I am pretty much set, and I know I have no right whatsoever to groan about the outcome, but some certain things I have seen happened in my school really drove me nuts!</p>
<p>Someone from my school–half native american and half philippine–just got accepted into Stanford. I feel glad for her. </p>
<p>But at the same time, the school valedictorian, and with all 5’s on like a dozen APs and a whole lot of extracuriculars–Asian btw–was rejected from EVERY Ivy he applied to. A friend of mine, Korean, who does not have as good an EC but is clearly competitive enough, got recjected from almost EVERY college he applied to (he was accepted by UCI), and he’s literally crying himself a river right now. Similar thing happened to a Caucasian friend of mine (who has a stellar EC but wound up being accepted only by Colgate) and an Indian friend of mine (valedictorian too and 14 APs, accepted by USC likewise).</p>
<p>Now let’s get back to the Stanford girl. I’m not gonna say she does not deserve it (she’s a really terrific singer), but clearly from my point of view there’s plenty of other ppl in my school that deserve it more than she. Now don’t tell me I cannot judge her plainly from the surface. Her being the girlfriend of one of my best friends’, I know her and see her around campus a lot–in the student center watching TV with him, at the track watching sunset with him, in the library checking out the latest albums with him, while other ppl work their ass off every night. She obviously does not work half as hard as any of my friends aforementioned. Clearly she has her accomplishments, but I fail to see how these accomplishments can beat the accomplishments of a lot of other people’s.</p>
<p>You can say I’m a little jealous. In fact I am. I understand colleges are overflowing with Asians and Caucasians and Indians, etc. and want more diversity. I understand too many Asians work their ass off and have impeccable ECs but colleges can only accept a few. But sometimes it just seems so unfair for college admission officers to say “oh this guy must have worked really hard but too bad his EC is identical to a whole bunch of others”, and “this guy kind of sucks at academics but we need more native americans”, dismissing lots of sweat and tears of an applicant by a single flip of mind. The whole affirmative action and diversity thing frustrates me and, worse, makes me wish I belonged to another ethnicity and, worst of all, starts me to question what America is all about (I’m kind of like the dad in American History X here but certainly much less aggressive, lol…)</p>
<p>Lost track here… anyway, I feel much better now and I hope I got my point across.</p>
<p>Life isn’t fair, and actually most of the time it ****ing sucks.</p>
<p>Deal with it.</p>
<p>The End</p>
<p>(I am a high stats student that got rejected from all the top schools I applied btw, with both teacher recs and GC rec saying “best student in my career”)</p>
<p>I feel the same frustration. I commend the UC system for eliminating AA. </p>
<p>The thing is, life’s just like that. Many injustices are left to continue.</p>
<p>america sux because the minorities have more power.</p>