"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

The actual disparities between SAT scores of admitted black students and admitted white and Asian students are actually likely significantly larger than implied.

The presentation of SAT data was made by Arcidiacono on p. 26 of his initial report linked in my post #1937 above. It is only pictorial, so we can only estimate, but sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. The SAT scores presented for black admits over the 18 years or so shown are consistently lower than those of applicants of any other racial groups, except Hispanic applicants. Black admit scores are far lower than those for any other admitted group.

Moreover, note footnote 34 in the document. These are not even superscored SAT scores; they are a composite of SAT math plus the maximum of SAT reading and SAT writing. (Apparently, most of the data are from the 2400 scale SAT; presumably, the data pre-2009 or so reflect pre-2005 scores and are therefore just superscored just V+M 1 on the earlier 1600 scale.) I have no idea how ACT scores fit in.

Using a maximum of two available scores will have the tendency to compress the distribution and range of differences. As blacks are the lowest scoring applicant group, they should benefit most from compression. (Superscoring will magnify these tendencies as well.)

Also, with respect to white admits, note that the scores will disproportionately include those of the weaker legacies (~20% of the admits generally but presumed skewed white) and (especially) donor class and special interest admits (~14% of admits generally, again presumably skewed white).

The statement of undisputed facts that I referenced in post #1988 above (see Paragraph 682 on p.146 is also useful for SAT information by race in that part of the applicant pool deemed to be “standard strong” by the adcoms at Harvard. Here are the SAT Verbal and Math scores by race for those candidates, together with the share of applicants from such race who are deemed to be standard strong:

White: 758V 750M (12.0% of white applicants)
Asian: 759V 770M (15.1% of Asian applicants)
Hispanic: 685V 734M (3.6% of Hispanic applicants)
Black: 615V 625M (1.0% of black applicants)

I was struck not by the gaps, which are to be expected, but by the extraordinarily poor performance of blacks on the SAT Math (compare with Hispanic), which might reflect gender effects in the sample (I suspect the standard strong group for blacks is very skewed female, and females generally score lower on math than males). Note, though, Harvard only produced a random sampling of 10% adcoms sheets categorizing standard strong candidates, and so the extraordinarily low representation of blacks (1%) and glaringly low scores may reflect some sampling error (but again compare with Hispanic, also small N at 3.6% representation).

I have no doubt that the black admits to Harvard have the highest scores of the group, but I do suspect that the pictorial representation in the Arcidiacono Report needs to be informed by all the other data that have been released.

Also, again a point I have made on here before, for prospective black students reading this, the above data are consistent with all the other data I have seen: while many on CC will say test scores do not matter “past a certain threshold,” at least for black applicants maniacal test prep would appear likely to be the single most effective strategy to maximize chances of admission at the elites.

@SatchelSF Wow those numbers are now more drastic than I expected. A cumulative 1240 is considered “standard strong” by Harvard, despite that being only 1% of black applicants? That’s incredible. Is there information about the acceptance rates of the various “standard strong” groups? I’d never seen actual data supporting the existence of such drastic affirmative action, only articles which claim things without showing how they reached their conclusions. Thank you for doing the research for me.

@apprenticeprof

Read carefully Paragraphs 717-734 in the statement of undisputed facts linked in my post #1988 above and I think you will have your answer. Even within race, Harvard clearly changed its standards in order to hit the IPEDS single race black percentage (up until then, Harvard was satisfying its internal quota with mixed race students who “identified” as black but the IPEDS single race change proved embarrassing - seriously, you and I have exchanged ideas about this before - Harvard and the rest have always been about optics and pure virtue signalling, nothing more).

@theloniusmonk

Note on the bottom of every page of the Harvard report “Highly Confidential – Attorney’s Eyes Only”.

Statisticians have the tools of regression, and attorneys have the tools of legal process. Harvard was compelled to turn over this evidence, or else it never would have seen the light of day. Blum and his group are performing an outstanding public service here.

@apprenticeprof

People may point to a black student’s 3.5+ GPA and 95% graduation rate as proof that race-based admissions doesn’t matter in the end, but they’re forgetting that these metrics were obtained through easier courses and majors. Going to an ‘elite’ college when you’re not as bright as the average student limits your opportunities severely.
In my top 15 university, there was not a single black or Hispanic person in my upper-level math, econ and comp sci classes.

There was one black student in my grad-level econ class (Math proof-based econ course) and he dropped out after a week.

Maybe he wanted to be an economist and could have achieved his dreams if he went to a less elite college with weaker competition. Because of affirmative action, his dreams are now crushed. It is absolutely cruel to throw someone with a 650 M in a class with people who all got 800 M.

@SatchelSF

Those numbers are truly shocking… A 1200 composite is not even Stony brook-tier for an unhooked white or Asian.

@StudyingIsBad

This is a very interesting point. The analysis is similar for other “hooked” applicants. I am an alumni of a top university. Even if I had the funds to donate to “ensure” my children were accepted, I would not do it. My rising senior wants pre-med. My alma mater is a cut throat place that eats nice girls like her and spits them out again. Why would I want to crush her dreams at a place like that when she can succeed at a school that really wants to admit her for who she is? (She has fairly high stats, by the way. The kind that would probably place her in the “good enough” for anywhere category, but not genius level – at least not for math.)

On the other hand, if her passion was for the humanities, it would be a different matter. She loves philosophy and plans to major in it. If that were her only goal, I would try to see her at the school with the best philosophy department she could get into. Why not let her surround herself with that kind of stimulation and allow her to challenge herself with the best if that is what she craved?

Similarly, with regard to URM admits, whether going to Harvard limits or enhances their opportunities probably depends on their intended goals. If they are looking to go into a highly competitive quantitative field, then an elite university, for which they are less qualified, could be a big mistake. On the other hand, if they are looking to go into another field – then the doors that can be opened by a place like Harvard my provide countless opportunities that they might never have been able to access. Don’t discount the benefit of connections and the credibility that an elite degree can provide.

@gallentjill

The doors that are opened by a place like Harvard are usually BS overpaid jobs that society doesn’t need.

If we want to see more URM scientists and mathematicians, then that pool of 1200 composite URMs that the Ivy Leagues monopolized should’ve gone to some place like Stony Brook University where they’ll compete with others at their level.

@StudyingIsBad

I respectfully disagree about the benefit of more minorities ending up in “BS Overpaid” Jobs.

I also think you may be underestimating the difficulty of succeeding at a place like Stonybrook. It is not a warm and cuddly place and not for the feint of heart.

@gallentjill

To me, all undergrads are jokes that I can crush without any effort, but let’s be honest here. At top 15 universities, the students are probably a lot smarter than the ones you see at Stony.

Also, I was being very generous by saying Stony Brook. A 1200 composite is still below the 25th percentile there. St. John’s University might have been a more appropriate suggestion.

using the graph alluded to here https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/harvard-asian-quota-who-benefits/

Asians lose in every single model category.

  1. Legacy and Athletics
    Asians lose 17% of the student body vs academics. Whites gain 10% of the student body.
  2. Personal and Extracur Asians lose 12% Whites actually gain 13%
  3. demo Asians lose 20%, Whites gain 6%

and based on actual admission stats
Asians lose 24% Whites gain 5%

Asians lose spots to Whites under each and every model example.

In no case do Asians benefit on factors they can control except perhaps for the athletic portion of Legacy and Athletics.
Whites benefit at the expense of Asians in each and every model example provided.

Yes they lose more spots to other minority groups but it’s obvious what Harvard is doing here.

Harvard is solving their Asian problem by boosting White Enrollment…and dramatically boosting other minority enrollment more at the expense of Asians.

@StudyingIsBad

“People may point to a black student’s 3.5+ GPA and 95% graduation rate as proof that race-based admissions doesn’t matter in the end, but they’re forgetting that these metrics were obtained through easier courses and majors. Going to an ‘elite’ college when you’re not as bright as the average student limits your opportunities severely.
In my top 15 university, there was not a single black or Hispanic person in my upper-level math, econ and comp sci classes.”

That’s a statement by just an individual experience. In my individual experience from both my undergraduate and graduate schools, a few of the best classes were taught by black professors (business laws taught by a practicing lawyer, another business laws by a district circuit court chief judge, an organizational behavior by a black professor who you could argue with a different point of view and not get penalized, and an upper financial/economic graduate class taught by a black professor with UofChicago PhD degree who happened to be a NASA engineer in his earlier career).

Funny thing is that after 20 some years, I am still using what I learned from them to help my Asian American D on few of her classes (mainly STEM related) in a top 15 university.

@amNotarobot

I’m sure URMs can work at a prestigious place or hold a prestigious job title, but what did they do there? Did they invent something noteworthy or did they just twiddle their thumbs?

You want to know why I’m successful? I ignored academics and people with certifications. Most of them aren’t as smart as they think they are.
If these economists, business and financial PhDs were so smart, how come they’re so poor?

If you’re curious, I’ll tell you something I did back in 2008 that no PhD saw coming.

@StudyingIsBad said:

Please stop with the bragging. You don’t know the accomplishments of the people on this board. They prefer to let the merit of their posts do the talking for them.

MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Let’s omit the following types of comments from posts, please:
• You clearly don’t understand
• Why don’t you go back and read…
• Jane, you ignorant…

Aside from not being helpful, they are ToS violations. Several posts edited/deleted.

Additionally, let’s dispense with the humblebragging.

Back on topic: the figures provided by @SatchelSF are truly shocking.

We now know that being a URM isn’t just a light hook that adcoms have been propagandizing over and over again.

@sbballer

Interesting stats, too. But is it morally right for Asians to demand spots in an institution their ancestors didn’t build? It does sound a bit like entitlement. Maybe Asians should start their own college.

@skieurope

How about the not so humble bragging? :slight_smile:

MODERATOR’S NOTE:

Let me provide the non-answer answer - err on the side of caution. I have spent an inordinate amount of time on this thread over the last couple of days. If I have to come back in the next day or two to clean up again, I’m planning on closing the thread temporarily while I take my sweet time as time permits over the course of several days combing through before I reopen. Thank you for your understanding.

@studyingbad.

Asian entitlement… morally right? Come again?

the stats if anything show White entitlement

@sbballer

I’m saying this as an Asian. We didn’t build this country or had much to do with its success. Why is it right for us to demand that universities that white people built to accept more of us at the detriment of their progenies?

If we Asians truly think that we’re “worth” an Ivy admission and can do great things, then how come there hasn’t been a single Asian-started college in the US? The Jews did it with Brandeis. What about us? We have nothing.

Whites built this country. When the Founding Fathers wrote the Declaration of Independence, they were thinking about future white children, not Asian children. Technically, we’re not supposed to be in this country, but since we are, we should behave ourselves. It’s very shameful that we’re demanding that whites accept us.

“Why is it right for us to demand that universities that white people built to accept more of us at the detriment of their progenies?”

I’m not of Asian descent, so I don’t presume to speak for people of Asian descent. I am, however, American, as are all the US Harvard applicants. If you’re American, you’re part of “us” no matter what country your ancestors are from. It’s not like all white people are descended from the pilgrims on the Mayflower. That’s part of what makes us strong and part of what causes interesting discussions like this one.

But if you’re American, you’re “us” and you deserve the same consideration as all other Americans.

This stuff is just absolutely fascinating - a real peek behind the curtain, and a good illustration for those who say “how can we know - it’s holistic” of just how powerful the tools of mathematics are.

Here are selected estimates of the attributes that predict admission. One can think of them as a relative ordering of what the adcoms were (and are) really looking for, or at least those attributes significant on a differential basis.

Athlete – +6.335
Black – +2.5509
Legacy – +2.403
Native American – +1.787
Top academics – +1.314
Hispanic – +1.232
Low income – +0.998
Asian AND low income – +0.184
Hispanic AND low income – +0.126
Native American AND low income – b**
Asian – (-0.418)
Black AND low income – (-0.496)

It would appear that Harvard is not particularly interested in identifying and rewarding low income students of certain racial groups. People can draw their own conclusions, but it looks to me like the only thing worse than being Asian to Harvard is being a poor black applicant.

(You can see the complete list and discussion around Paragraphs 521-524 of the summary judgment statement of facts and also in the Harvard OIR report. Note that these figures were estimated by Harvard itself.)