"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

Only refers to it to refute it, if you read it (again?) that will hopefully become clear when you read phrases like

[quote] Even scholars who say they support affirmative action repeat this error.

Unfortunately, it is exaggerated, distorted and often presented without causes and contexts.

The key finding of the Princeton study is actually that Asian Americans suffer from what law professor Jerry Kang has called “negative action.” In truth, Asian Americans…

[/quote]

Also, the article was linked in the article I posted right before, so do not worry about my digging time, it was minimal.

Again, the salient point is:

The article also referred to a study showing Asian enrollment actually dropped in top UC law schools after AA ended (but white enrollment went up…), that is here - https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1061&context=aalj - P 36 section III.

OHMom please explain why hispanics but not asians deserve AA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

It doesn’t refute any significant element of the study. It doesn’t question the validity or relevance of Espenshade’s underlying data or his regression methodology. It assumes the validity of both.

There are far more examples and shows the total inequity of AA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Alien_Land_Law_of_1913

http://teachingresources.atlas.illinois.edu/chinese_exp/resources/resource_2_4.pdf

https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3614&context=californialawreview

Yet interestingly no one has ever proposed setting up a system to help the underrepresented Asians in professional sports. In that system everyone is just fine with positions and salaries based entirely on merit. But very soon the SCOTUS will change the law forever.

Geographical diversity is also a problem that unfairly impacts college admissions. I have heard plenty of people complain about it, as it once again favors certain groups over others. I also live in the NY suburbs and my race combined with my residence will put me at a competitive disadvantage. It is not unreasonable to say that it is best to judge applicants off their merit and what they can bring to positively benefit that school. Grouping people based on race, ethnicity, location, or any other factor is unfair to them and others as it neglects their individual value and replaces it with the value placed on that group of people, even though people of the same race, ethnicity, region, etc. are very different people with different experiences, ethics, and values. Don’t you think your daughter and other applicants put at a disadvantage deserve an equal chance at admissions? What do you find concerning about the alternatives to affirmative action admissions?

There have been multiple cases including recently with Harvard where Asian-American students were discriminated against and yes, even more where it was white students affected. There should be a societal understanding that people of color aren’t one united front and don’t all face the same issues. Furthermore, shouldn’t white students be judged on a fair scale with other people of color? There was a period of time where whites and poc had different standards and to say the least we don’t want to emulate behaviors from that period of time. Isn’t it reasonable that all students get a fair shot in the admissions process based on their merits and individuality?

@SAY
“The Mexican Repatriation was a mass deportation of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans from the United States between 1929 and 1936. Estimates of how many were repatriated range from 400,000 to 2,000,000”
One example that Hispanics have not been well treated by US government.

Specific positive references to its validity and relevance would be useful here, and you are obviously ignoring all the criticism it levels at the study.

But I sense you aren’t trying to engage, just to “gotcha”. So don’t bother, maybe.

Absolutely. AA doesn’t conflict with that in any way.

AA is the process of altering one’s chances of admission based on race, ethnicity, gender, or other factors unrelated to the merit of the applicant. By definition that creates an unfair playing field based off factors that are out of their control and do not speak for their viability as a candidate themselves. How can AA work without conflicting with merit and individual achievement?

It’s obvious that Harvard and other elite colleges favor hook groups that of which Asians are underr-erpresented among almost all – recruited athletes, legacy, URMs, dean and director’s special interest, Z-list, etc. However, this was not the focus of the lawsuit. I don’t know enough about the relevant law to guess at the outcome of a theoretical SCOTUS decision on the lawsuit, but looking at the lawsuit docs, it doesn’t seem obvious that SCOTUS would theoretically “strike this down.”

I talked about my opinion on the personal ratings earlier. My opinions on the admission decisions models and how they reflect Asian vs White preferences is below, which key for determining merit. Like the personal rating, I think it looks suspicious, but not conclusive. And anti-Asian bias beyond favoring hooks (including URM) also has less effect than is often suggested. As discussed below, an increase from 22% to 23% assuming full controls and expanded sample. It does not appear to occur for Asian females – only Asian males, particularly ones outside of California.

The lawsuit mentions many different admissions models that come to varying conclusions. The most simple and basic one is model is the Harvard OIR one, which was referenced in an old internal memo. This is the one with the graph that shows that the Asian percentage drops from 26% to 18% when considering “demographics” (both URM and Asian). The model controlled for academic index, adcom ratings in the 4 main categories (academic, athletic, ECs, and personal), athlete, legacy, gender, and race. With these controls, it found the following regression coefficients.

Athlete: +6.3
Legacy: +2.4
Black: +2.4
Hispanic: +1.3
Asian: -0.4

The Asian coefficient was negative and statistically significant. However, it is important to note this is a very basic model that does not consider things like LOR ratings, interview ratings, intended major (lawsuit notes large differences between races) , whether the student applied SCEA, whether the student was disadvantaged, whether the student was on the dean/director’s list (16% of white admits), etc. Both the plantiff and Harvard’s expert agree that the one from the old Harvard OIR memo is not adequate and have their own models that incorporate the additional categories mentioned above, as well as many others. In spite of the hundreds of pages of complaints largely relating to these models, the plantiff and Havard expert’s models are quite similar.

The plantiff’s model found that the percentage of Asian students would change as follows under different considerations, assuming full sample and full controls (including personal rating). The “Asian penalty” only increases the percent Asian by 1% from 22% to 23%. Favoring URMs, legacies, and athletes have larger influences, but these categories are not the main focus of the lawsuit.

Default: 22% Asian
No Asian Penalty: 23% Asian
No Racial Preferences (no URM or Asian): 28% Asian
No Race, Legacy, or Athlete: 33% Asian

The regression coefficients with full controls and full sample are below. The specific numbers all differ from the Harvard OIR model with the additional controls, but a similar pattern occurs, with a small, but statistically significant negative coefficient for Asian.

Athlete: +~7.849 ((0.153)
Black: +3.674 (0.103)
Legacy: +2.329 (0.164)
Hispanic: +1.959 (0.086)
Asian: -0.257 (0.070)

The Asian coefficient varies from year to year, varying from a minimum of approximately -0.6 in 2018 to a maximum of +0.1 in 2019. It also appears to vary by gender. There was no statistical difference between female Asian and female White. Harvard’s expert found a small advantage for both Asian female and Asian from California. The degree of various suggests there is significant noise in the measure, likely depending on additional variables that were not included in the model.

Harvard’s expert found an overall Asian coefficient that was not statistically different from 0 using the same data source that the plantiff did. The reason for the different conclusion, primarily relates to the model differences listed below:

Personal Rating Worth +0.31 – As noted above the previous numbers include the personal rating. If you exclude it, the Asian coefficient decreases significantly. I previously stated my opinion.

Controlling for Parents’ Occupation: Worth +0.19 – Parents’ occupation has a notable overlap with race, so if you compare applicants with similar parents’ occupation, then it decreases the appearance of a bias against Asian applicants. Harvard says it’s valid to do so because adcoms have access to parents’ occupation and are instructed to consider it. The plantiff says parents’ occupation is primarily used to determine whether the applicant is disadvantaged and is not a key component of the admission decision. I don’t know that level of detail in how applicants are reviewed, but the plantiff’s view seems more reasonable to me.

Add Intended Career and Staff Interview: Worth +0.11 - Intended career should absolutely be included. Only a small minority receive staff interviews, so I can see the merit of either including or excluding them. The effect is fairly minor.

Remove Disadvantaged & Race Interaction: Worth +0.10 – It seems reasonable to me that disadvantaged and race would have significant interaction, so I see no good reason to remove it.

It’s a lot more than that but in part, it’s taking the achievements of a certain student applicant and placing them in the context of their race. Which many would argue is part of what constitutes “merit”.

So are you alleging Harvard is using geographic diversity as a cover for anti-antisemitism and religious discrimination? Or are you claiming there’s a sufficient “disproportionate impact” on Jews from geographic diversity and therefore geographic diversity shouldn’t be a legally permissible factor, even in the absence of overt or conscious bias?

Yes that is how AA works, but why should achievements be taken in context of race? That creates the implication that the achievements ofcertain races can only inferior or superior to the merits of the general population. For most of American history achievements were placed in the context of race, with the achievements of minorities and women being minimalized (before Civil Rights and the rise of egalitarianism and the ideal of social equality). The SCOTUS decision in Plessy v Ferguson upheld that ideal that seperate can be equal, which of course was overturned in Brown v Board of Education of Topeka stating that “seperate can never be equal”. This ideal that seperate can or will create equality that was used to justify segregation similarly applies to AA (of course on a different scale, but the guiding ideology remains the same). In our 21st century society, where the mainstream belief is that everyone deserves an equal chance in their pursuits, achievements should be judged regardless of race to determine merit rather than repeating this old tried and failed ideal.

makemesmart you do have a small point but my main point remains valid. First of all many of those people were the result of the Mexican-American War and the annexation of Texas which is quite different than the Asians. The other point is that these people constitute a tiny part of the the total hispanic immigration. The vast vast majority of hispanic migrants have come since 1980 and have suffered no significant discrimination. The USA in every way has been far better to them than Mexico or any central american country of origin.

Data 10 all you need to do is read the result of Harvard’s own internal investigation which they then quashed and ignored. It’s a death sentence for them. Almost all the top lawyers fully expect Harvard to lose this case by a solid majority. The result will be that Harvard will be forced to give up public government money or change the admission process.

AA is definitely NOT about “separate but equal”. Almost the opposite.

Achievements are judged in context all the time SO THAT everyone gets an equal chance in their pursuits, ideally. First gen and low income are important contexts, as is “my high school had no AP courses” or no sports to join, or no jobs in a rural area. IMO in an ideal world there’d be no need to try to balance because everyone would have equal opportunity but again IMO, there is definitely a need to consider these differences, and definitely to look at what an individual student “played with the hand they were dealt”, if you will. Race is one part of that.

Everyone doesn’t start with the same baseline, the same advantages and challenges, and if colleges want to take that into account in assessing merit, I agree with that.

MODERATOR’S NOTE:
I am temporarily closing this thread to review. The three or so people on the last few pages are just debating at this point. There is no ETA for completion, but it won’t be today.

But then the year’s admission cycle is inherently a zero sum game, right?

The suit, which accuses the university of discriminating against Asian-Americans, has shed light on little-known aspects of Harvard’s selection process.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/us/harvard-admissions-asian-americans.html

Some really interesting tidbits from Harvard’s dean of admissions:

"The plaintiffs’ lawyer asked, “And are you rating the applicant, or are you rating the level of interest that other people at the university have in this applicant’s admission prospect?”

Over an objection, Mr. Fitzsimmons replied, “The latter.”

He’s basically admitting that at least for some applicants, the people associated with the applicant are more important than the applicant.

And then:

“The plaintiffs’ lawyer asked whether the bigger the financial contribution from a donor, the more it would affect the development office’s rating of someone on the dean’s list related to that donor. “It would tend to go that way,” Mr. Fitzsimmons replied.”

Confirming what we all knew - money talks at Harvard and the more of it you have, the more an applicant you’re endorsing has of gaining admission.

Then one more:

“The plaintiffs say that admissions officers then fine-tune the final class using a form that lists five pieces of information about the applicant; they give an example of a form that has spaces for the applicant’s name, LIN (lineage), ETH (ethnicity), ATH (athlete), and HFAI (financial aid).”

If Harvard doesn’t challenge this, then it means that adcoms know about financial aid, which technically they shouldn’t. However I think most of us following college admissions realize that adcoms know the income and wealth of the applicant they’re evaluating.

The lawsuit mentions admissions officers flag applicants who appear to be eligible for HFAI (FA with $0 parental contribution), which corresponds to parents having incomes of less than ~$80k per year. They make this estimation based on various factors within their application that include things like parents occupations and background, fee waiver, and neighborhood. They don’t have perfect accuracy in this estimation, like they would if they were basing it on FA reported income… In another thread, I calculated that ~60% of applicants with incomes of less than $80k were flagged.

Both the plantiff and Harvard agree that getting the HFAI flag (less than ~$80k income) is associated with a boost in chance of admission, but a relatively small boost compared to the other listed factors (legacy, URM, and athlete). You can see an example “lop” docket at https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/massachusetts/madce/1:2014cv14176/165519/421/221.pdf?ts=1529313582 .