This is a cut and paste from your earlier thread where you complained about why Muslims weren’t covered by Affirmative Action.
When you stereotype people all over the place, you’re only building for yourself an echo chamber @ELopez1275 and not adding to anyone’s understanding of legitimate bllindspots and discrimination.
You seem to only want a platform to vent. That makes it easy for people to tune you out. I’m not sure if that’s your intent.
Hi y’all! I’ve been on CC before (a lot actually) and was wondering why there is so much push back for Affirmative Action, espically for minorities who happen to be economically privileged (e.g. A black person whose parents make more than 100k a year, but less than say 200k). Just because your parents fall into a certain income bracket doesn’t mean you can’t be subject to racism. My parents fall in that category, but that doesn’t stop me from getting followers around stores, or getting stopped by cops for no reason, (this has actually happened),etc, etc. Being disadvantaged economically only magnifys the effects of racism and prejudice, but money sure doesn’t make it go away. Or maybe I’m wrong? I probably don’t understand the nuances, because it seems so clear cut.
Because affirmative action was not only designed as a cure for racism, but, according to Wikipedia, was “to achieve goals such as bridging inequalities in employment and pay, increasing access to education, promoting diversity, and redressing apparent past wrongs, harms, or hindrances.”
Economically privileged have already bridged some inequalities, therefore it can be argued that more economically disadvantaged minority, or economically disadvantaged in general, need to be helped. Some argues that the current system seem to overly favor privileged minorities who received good educational opportunities, over disadvantaged ones who suffer more inequalties, whether minority or not.
I don’t know about all university, but several Ivy League universities don’t only go by what a student indicates on their application. They also collect race and other demographic information from the College Board, high school reports etc. This is done because it is appreciated that students occasionally omit questions by accident.
@SculptorDad I’ve been doing alumni interviews for an Ivy League college and on the alumni interview report there is a section that says “any other information that might be relevant in evaluating this candidate, i.e. socio-economic circumstances, family hardship, illness, interruptions in schooling etc”. Universities now look well beyond race and make an effort to take into account other relevant factors. This is partly in response to the Supreme Court which has urged that universities take social and economic factors into consideration as well.
@T26E4 , Asians score higher in standardized testing. Look at the national ACT report, or the report for your local state. The national ACT report lists the composite average at 24 for Asians, 22.2 for Whites and 17 for blacks. The roots of the problems of relatively low black achievement, and modestly low white achievement cannot be fixed by affirmative action programs, or any other social engineering fixes, and 50 years of discrimination against whites, Jews, and more recently Asians have not worked and will never work. If you look at New Orleans and Detroit, you will see a huge increase in student performance compared to the previous single source public school system. Perhaps Indiana’s statewide experiment in school choice will bring some closure to this dead end topic.
As Justice Roberts said, “The best way do end discrimination is not to discriminate”. I think people have been brainwashed to value ‘diversity’ over achievement.
Detroit is my alma mater school district. Your remark about a “huge increase” must have missed us here. It’s still the absolute lowest performing “big city” district in the nations, even including the charters. We have school choice – but it doesn’t help the single mom w/o a car (and the Motor City’s mass transit is non-existent) who wants to get her kids to a better school.
So my family comes from northwestern India and one of my parents has fair skin and basically looks like an indigenous european. Since northwestern Indians are “aryan” and considered to be caucasian by anthropologists, could I identify as white on the admissions paper and use the reasoning I just mentioned to justify my race selection?
@noplayallwork I doubt that will help. I mean looking at stats, Asian and White students have nearly the same high standards. I doubt changing from Asian to Caucasian would change a rejection to an admission.
@koolguy654 Really? I’ve heard countless complaints and reports that Asians seem to be quite discriminated against in college admissions.
@noplayallwork If you have a lot of students who all have 35 ACT, 4.0 GPA, 10 AP classes, Allstate orchestra, how do you expect all of them to be accepted. It’s being a stereotype that hurts your chances, whether it’s White or Asian. Also, since Asians tend to be smarter, they are expected to compete for the same spots. Actually, I think whites are held at higher standards since Asians make about 6% of the U.S population and 22% of Harvard while whites make 63% of population and 49% of Harvard, so Asians representation in Harvard is more than three times their representation in the U.S while Whites representation at Harvard is less than their public representation and if you look at the stats, whites are hardly less smarter than Asians. BTW, I’m African American, if you were wondering. African Americans are sometimes looked upon a little bit more leniently, but I think it’s fair. We start off facing racial biases against us until it’s time for college, then our race helps us get in, but you know what’s after college, racial bias against us again. I know I got off topic here, but all I’m saying is being Asian isn’t bad and it doesn’t hurt your application at all, and changing to White will definitely not help. Always remember, don’t let colleges change you; it’s you who changes colleges. If a college doesn’t want you, let’s say for your race, there’s no need for you to force them to want you. It’s their loss in the end, isn’t it?
Affirmative Action used to be a very good tool to level the playing field in an era where institutional racism was prevalent. The thing is, in the 21st century in the US, institutional racism does NOT exist, regardless of what the media wants you to think. Yes there are still some racist individuals, but there are no groups or institutions that are inherently racist anymore.
And anyone who opposes affirmitive action is pegged as a racist in the same way that the Obama campaign threatened everyone during his reelection that if you didn’t support him or his policies, then some how that is enough to make you racist. The fact is, in the 21st century, individuals who are the benefactors of admission through affirmitive action do have a significantly higher rate of dropping out of institutions they couldn’t actually thrive at than students who were admitted through standard protocol.
The problem is that the schools in the inner cities, where a fair amount of these minorities reside, are in absolute shambles. Maybe we should invest in the education of these students at a lower level, so that when they enter the college admissions pool, they are more qualified applicants. A black child who goes to a respectable suburban school is just as likely as a white student in the same school to be qualified to attend elite colleges. We can only truly level the playing field if we invest in the education of our inner cities.
But the politicians on the left don’t want these minorities to be better of and more educated, because then they will be able to provide for themselves and will be less dependant on the government, and it is this dependence on the government that the liberals feed off of, taking advantage of these minorities. All the while, the left explains that it is racism that is responsible for all of your shortcomings, and only the government can right this problem.
Essentially the left blames the undereducation of minorities on racism, while failing to point out the institutions/groups that are racist. They do this instead of blaming the underfunded city schools for failing these children.
Affirmitive action was fine when institutional racism existed, but now we need to talk about the real problem, the left’s inability to allow minorities prosper as a whole, fearing they will no longer rely on the left to provide for them.
@koolguy654 “Actually, I think whites are held at higher standards… whites are hardly less smarter than Asians.”
What’s with all the lawsuits and complaints by groups of Asians against so many colleges like the ivy league then? In fact, many ivy leagues expect them to score at least 100 points higher than whites for the same chances according to some sources.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/asian-american-groups-seek-investigation-into-ivy-league-admissions-1464026150
Also, Asians being disproportionate to the US population doesn’t mean there isn’t discrimination in the process. In fact, the ivies would probably be even more Asian if they didn’t have discrimination policies. Just look all this up, there’s plenty of discrimination being complained about in colleges against Asians.
“BTW, I’m African American, if you were wondering… changing to White will definitely not help.”
I know it might feel great that standards are lowered for you, but it’s not really ethical and you shouldn’t feel good about this or justify it. There’s no racist boogeymen out to get you, and if anything you probably have a higher chance of getting into a good college and a good job because of things like affirmative action.
“Always remember, don’t let colleges change you… It’s their loss in the end, isn’t it?”
Nearly every American college would look more down upon me for my race, so the only way to avoid this would be to not go to college or go to college in Europe or wherever. And I’d kind of rather go to college in my own country.
@Orioles13 I agree
@noplayallwork Unlike what most people think, African Americans don’t get into university with below average results. They get in with the expected academic level. What most people don’t get is that Ivy’s are extremely competitive. EXTREMELY. Almost all of the applicants have the same high level academics. I remember reading a post that said that if Ivies rejected all the people whom they accepted and accepted a new group of applicants, the academic level of the university would hardly differ. I think this is true. What Ivies tried to do is make their campuses more attractive. As you said, if everything was based on test scores, most campuses would be 90-95% White and Asian, but they try to diversify.
@Orioles13 your argument seems reasonable, but until we improve African American education, we have to get some representation from the African American community. As I said before, Ivies actually have the full choice to choose who they want because of the high volume of qualified applicants. If they choose to accept Africans, it’s their choice. Also, if we followed the no affirmative action system, most Hispanics and Blacks would be under the mercy of Whites and Asians. We wouldn’t have top colored lawyers, engineers, doctors, teachers and others. We would’ve definitely had less governmental representation. Take Barack Obama for an example, let’s say affirmative action helped him get into Harvard and Columbia. Do you think he would’ve become president without going to Columbia or Harvard? Do you think he could’ve become a senator without prestigious education? And after all this, do you think Obama is less smart than any other president? Do you think he is less successful than any other democratic president? It’s merely the fact that there are so many students to choose from that it is a hard decision.
@noplayallwork Also, when I said that I am African American, I said it because I didn’t want you to think that I was racist. I merely said it to show that it was from a “third person point-of-view”.
“Nearly every American college would look more down upon me for my race, so the only way to avoid this would be to not go to college or go to college in Europe or wherever. And I’d kind of rather go to college in my own country.”
What about state flagships, schools in the top 30-40, or out of state schools. Its sad that you don’t have the self confidence to say that “its the school’s loss for not having you”. That just means that you have no aspirations for the future, no goals, and no hopes. In the end, its individuals who lift the schools name, not the other way around. At least, that’s what I think.
And BTW, why is everybody picking on African Americans, when there are other unfair methods of admissions like being related to a big “donor” or having a legacy.
What makes me sad about these threads is the entitlement mentality many people have regarding admissions, and the self-centric view many people have on this topic. So in response to some of the comments on this thread, let me give my point of view regarding affirmative action as an African American who was recently accepted into MIT.
A question I often ask myself is if I would have gotten into MIT if I was white or Asian. Honestly my answer is no idea. While I took the most college level/rigorous courses in my school, had a 4.0 GPA, had a good interview, good refs, a couple of leadership positions, my SAT score was only sbove their 50th percentile, not above their 75th, and my low class rank, 15/117, may have screwed me. So I can’t answer that question. But I can say pursuing academic success has been a struggle for me. Not in an “it’s a struggle for everyone” type of way, let me explain.
First of all, I believe that birth circumstance overall BENEFITS many Asians/Whites in the whole college process. Why is that? This might be a racist assertion to make, so forgive me if I’m wrong, but from what I can glean, the principles and importance academic success are more highly valued and instilled into Asian and white children from a young age. I’ve observed that culturally, their families value academic success, good grades, and further education more than families of blacks or hispanics. What does this translate to? Lots of coddling, handholding, and a predisposition and preorientation for academic success given to them by their parents. Because of their parents, many Asians and whites come into kindergarten with knowledge much above their grade levels, and many black students come in not knowing how to read. That’s a fact. This benefits them for the rest of their school careers. Wealthier families buy tutors for their children that aid and assist them throughout their entire schooling career, some families even giving their kids SAT tutoring from middle school. This is actually a common things at Ivy leagues. Many have parents who mandate their children’s schedules and basically do all the work for them. For less wealthy children with white or Asian parents, there is still a significantly larger amount of pressure, and aid from parents, and that helps a lot. The fact is, many of them care about their children’s education more than African American parents, because it is more culturally valued. The aid and pressure to succeed academically gives them a high advantage over other races. It would be racist of me to say that ALL Asian or white parents practice this, but it is MUCH more prominent in those communities then among blacks.
Another thing I’d like to bring up is the social stigma behind me pursuing my own academic success. For some context, my school is about half black, half white, with a small amount of hispanics and Asians. However, none of the people in the top 10 of my grade are black or Hispanic, and 4/5 Asians in my grade are in the top ten. This stark misrepresentation of my schools demographics in the top 10 provides evidence for my assertion that Asians are culturally advantaged to do well in school, once again, forgive me if I seem racist. Correct me if I’m wrong, too. But the reason for this can’t be that Asians and whites are fundementallg more hardworking, or their genes just make them smarter than blacks or Hispanics. There is a significant cultural advantage there, and much of their success academically is a result of their parents. The ironic thing is that even affirmative action is that there is no top school where the percentage of blacks is even close to the national percentage of blacks, but the Asian percentage is WAY higher. Ask yourself why that is.
Anyway back to the social stigma. As a result of my race, I have experienced a huge social backlash because I try to succeed academically. If you could only experience how dramatically my social life changed from my freshman year to now. On a base level, trying to take more rigorous classes isolated me. In my freshman year, everyone took the same classes, and I was one of the “popular kids”. And yes, I hung around mostly the clique of the “black kids”. My school self-segregates. However, during sophomore year and especially junior year, as a result of me trying to take more rigorous courses, all of that changed. As I started taking more rigorous classes, it went from “wow, you’re smart, you have an A in math?!” to “Why are you trying to take all these AP courses, you thing you’re too good to take classes with the rest of us?” and “He thinks he’s better than us because he got a 5 in AP Chem!”. As I progressed, there were less other African Americans in my classes. I started becoming isolated from many of my old friends, as they spent their time together in acting and music classsz while I opted to take more AP and college courses than even my Asian counterparts. I was not the only African American in my school doing this, or who went through this, but I’m the only one, as far as I know, who stuck it out. My other friends in similar positions dropped out of AP courses in order to be with their friends again. I went from being one of the “popular kids” in freshman year, to only having 3 close friends where I live. I had to watch my old friends slowly leave me behind. Even this year, I was very reluctant to tell people I was applying to MIT because when I did, I got a lot of “X and Y person got in, and they were X, Y valedictorian, just apply to Georgia state like the rest of us, and quit tryna be better than everyone else” type of thing. It’s kind of funny now, though, because since I’ve gotten in people have practically been telling my poop smells nice. Looking at many Asians and whites in my school, Their academic success was praised, because it was normal for them. Their academic success was praised, while mine was scorned. All their friends were pursuing the same goals they were, and so it made it acceptable and normalized, and therefore much more easy to pursue. Even in testing, my SAT score was a 1460 the first time i took, not s good score for Ivy leagues, in fact, kind of a bad score. But when I went to take it again, everyone was telling me not to, even my parents, telling me I was trying too hard. Asians who made higher scores than me the first time were encouraged to take it again. Looking at this on a deeper level, it seems that there might be a stigma for success academically among blacks. I was scorned for pushing for academics while my friends preferred to pursue things like acting, music, and sports. And from meeting other African Americans who were accepted into the Ivy League, it seems my experience is not unique, in fact, rather common. Social factors that harm African Americans also play a role in academic success. It’s a bandwagon effect. If it’s praised, you want to keep going, if not, you’ll want to stop. And among certain groups, academic success is not held to as high esteem as others.
Now here is where it starts to get philosophical. A dyslexic girl gets a 680 on here reading SAT. Another boy, who is perfectly normal, makes a 720? Who’s score is more impressive? Quite obviously, the dyslexic girl. I believe the same principles apply when looking at race in college admissions. A middle class Asian student scores a 1560 on his SAT. His parents have always pushed him to succeed academically, buy him fancy study books, and his peers praise him for his success. A middle class black student score a 1530. He spend lengths of time studying on his own for the SAT, his friends do not like the fact that he does well in school, no one ever pushed him, he is self-driven, and he did not have access to the same resources, not because his family couldn’t afford it, but because they didn’t buy it. Now who’s score is more impressive? I understand not all blacks and Asians experience the same advantages or disadvantages I have discussed thus far in this passage, but the fact is that a large enough amount do for it to be significant and relevant. Often times, a group is seemingly predisposed to success, such as Asians in school, or even blacks in sports, it’s often largely because of the work/will of those around them, especially their parents. If their raw numbers, like test scores or GPA are overall higher, it does not mean they “worked harder” or “deserve it more”. Such assertions necessitate the fact that blacks are simply less hardworking or not as smart as their Asian and whites counterparts, which is quite obviously false.
If you took an Asian, and raised him in a home where the disadvantages in school blacks faced culturally exist, do you really think he’d be equally as successful if he was put into a home where advantages Asians have in school exist culturally? The answer is a resounding no. Asians tend to succeed in academics more because of their culture. So is an Asian valedictorian as impressive as a black Valedictorian? If diamonds were more common than bronze, bronze would be worth more.
That’s why the “my SAT score is higher, and my grades are better, therefor I worked harder and I deserve it more.” argument is invalid. Cultural and social advantage is a huge factor. That’s why I believe affirmative action should exist.
The whole “affirmative action should be income based” argument has much more validity, and comes from a much less selfish place, but in my opinion, is still not quite there. While income does have a HUGE role in academic success, race plays an equally big role, taking into account the social factors I mentioned above. That is not to say that affirmative action is perfect. Not all blacks experience the same level of disadvantage in academics nor do all Asians. I believe a combination of race and income should be taken into account in admissions decisions, not just one or the other.
That being said, even with affirmative action, in top schools, the percentage of blacks is NOT equal to their national percentage. They are far below it, in fact. Other points I didn’t mention: the quality of urban black-dominated public schools is significantly worse and makes it near impossible to do things typical of many ivy applicants (win awards, certain ECs, ace every AP exam).
In school, Asians have a cultural advantage that predispose them to do better (in general), and blacks have abcultural disadvantage that predisposes them to do worse. For this reason, Asian academic success is more common, and therefore less noteworthy, than black academic success. What really qualifies one for schools is initiative and natural talent. The system of using grades and SAT scores makes Asians look better, when they may have not done as much work or struggled as hard as a black applicant with lower scores. Asians aren’t disadvantaged in the college process, because it begins 4 years before they submit their application, and they are culturally advantaged throughout high school. Forgive me if I sound racist. The only time when blacks are advantaged is when the admissions officers are reviewing the applications. But being Asian in and of itself is part of the reason their applications look better. High school is as much a part of the college process as submitting the application, and Asians are culturally advantaged in that. That’s why affirmativr action is necessary. Because of the disadvantage culturally blacks have in high school, their applications may not even make it to the admissions officers in the first place, and often the ones that do are considered blatantly unqualified.
Affirmative action is not an “immoral advantage” like @noplayallwork said.
And honestly the boost from being a URM is much smaller than people like to admit. The way people talk, you’d think that a whole bunch of blacks with 1100 SATs are being admitted into Harvard with a 40% acceptance rate and just heavily bringing down the schools SAT average. It’s not true. At top schools, the acceptance rate of blacks is not significantly higher, and many Asians who feel as though they are being discriminated against probably would not have been admitted if they were black either. It is unlikely that your race would actually be the tipping point in your admission, contrary to popular release
@sweatearl Are Asians considered people of color / minorities?
I also want to pose a hypothetical situation to you where there is only one spot left for admission into an elite private college. The admissions committee has finished reviewing all but two applications. Both applicants have virtually identical applications (scores, grades, recommendations, same caliber essays, extracurriculars, etc.) but, applicant #1 is a black student from an upper middle class family that attended an elite prep school and applicant #2 is a white student from a low income household and attended an under-resourced public school. Which applicant should the admissions committee accept?