@OHMomof2 South Africa has a black majority that had the majority of resources and opportunities until it was colonized. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison, but I get your point.
It is hard to say that AA evens the playing field when one sees the things that I have seen at the lower levels of primary education, both as a student and now as a parent. I always wonder how anyone can expect for URM student populations to match up at similar percentages of elite college admissions in America when the wealthiest state in the United States has such terrible early outcomes for a subset of URM (young black males). Or do we just want to blame the test that those black male students took as being biased for measuring reading ability? Because what is happening in California is happening all over the US at varying levels. It is amazing to me that we don’t push all students to compete and focus on elementary school reading outcomes (versus blaming standardized testing or lying to ourselves that their are currently enough academically qualified URM for elite colleges to chose from without lowering the standards of those institutions).
At my son’s highly diverse well achieving high school (36% White, 28% African American, 17% Asian, and 15% Hispanic this year) my son is virtually alone when it comes to rigor among black males in his class (rigor that is needed to compete at elite institutions versus just surviving at them). But there are literally 100 White and Asian males competing at that same rigor or higher in his very large high school class. I can see 1st hand that URM are not competing at the same rigor in the high schools in my community. We can continue to blame the system as URM or we can also take look in the mirror and “self-correct” on our own.
If comparisons were made within matched groups by parental educational attainment, would there be much of a difference by race or other demographic factors?
For example, some have mentioned about how different black immigrants from Africa do in their kids’ education, compared to other African Americans. Perhaps that is not so surprising, when the immigrants are subject to similar selection factors as immigrants from Asia (i.e. in favor of skilled workers and PhD students). A similar observation can be made with white immigrants from Europe. But the black and white immigrants are largely ignored when people see race first, and they “blend in” to the much larger black and white populations in the US who do not share their immigration-selected characteristics (in contrast, the Asian population the US is very heavy with recent immigrants and their first/second generation descendants).
Of course, among those not of recent immigrant heritage, educational attainment among black people was suppressed for most of US history until very recently (in generational terms).
Efforts to improve elementary reading skills do not preclude supporting AA. This is not an either-or effort. People can, and in fact do, focus on both of those and many more initiatives.
If we are talking about the CC schools of interest, “lowering the standards of those institutions” is not a concern. They want the students they want and if somewhat lower test scores of athletes, legacies, under represented minorities, uber rich kids or oboe players from Montana gets them there, they have proven that they can graduate these kids at extremely high rates. If they see their “standards lowering” in a way that they do not like or want, they will adjust.
Repeating from the New York Times piece in my prior post:
“Even in districts where white students and their minority classmates had similar socioeconomic backgrounds, academic gaps persisted.”
At some point, we have to consider the possibility that minorities simply don’t value the type of education being offered, or are academically lazy.
With the lowering of standards that AA brings about, however, it is easy for minorities to blow off education. And this persists beyond college. Now that so many tech firms have grown through the stratosphere, minorities are wanting to be hired without offering the requisite applicant pool that the tech firms need. A shakedown.
Alternatively (my preference), we could reshape the entire education system to allow minority groups to grow in areas that they excel in, instead of steadfastly adhering to a system designed by whites. “Whites and Asians who are good at math make a lot of money. Blacks, work harder at math.” That is ridiculous, and such a disservice to minority groups.
The question is does AA help and provide social ultility?
Two people walk in the room for a business lecture.
One, a white male, went to Stanford. The collective room thinks. “Wow. Must be a smart guy. I’ll listen intently. “
Second a black women who went to Harvard. A few idiots think. “Pfff, wonder how she got into Harvard. What a joke. Took Billy’s spot probably. “
Now for the super accomplished person who isn’t white but also wasn’t an AA recipient this weighs heavily on them.
Or if you were an AA beneficiary it’s still hurts. The hard work and obstacles climbed. And the degree required the same grades as everyone else. It would piss me off. But does it matter?
Is the fact they are both speaking to the room side by side the most important thing? Or both making a great living and helping their kids climb the bar equally.
But I get the problem with the scenario for those who deal with this in their lives.
I wonder if the guy should feel “less than” since at most colleges men get preference? What if the guy was an athlete or a legacy or very wealthy? What if one of them was full pay? That’s also an advantage.
@ucbalumnus There is still a difference between the races, just not as pronounced as you keep adding SES factors along with parental educational attainment factors to the equation.
@gallentjill I have my own theories on what causes URM students (especially black males) in my particular area from going after the same rigor in high school courses and it does start at the elementary school levels. I have shared son’s story of not being identified initially until my wife worked the system to get him tested and he easily tested into our county’s gifted program (systematic overlooking kids with potential early on especially black males). I also see a different level of parental involvement (PTA, class parents, etc.) between different races, and a different culture around education (This is a generalization that is not always true but I see it more often than not). Once students get behind early in America, it becomes much harder to catch back up with peers. By the point one reaches high school in my area, you pretty much know a student’s path.
@OHMomof2 I love how you don’t really put much emphasis or don’t care about kids who struggle and struggle hard early on at elite schools (you see the graduation outcome, but don’t look at mental struggles of these students). Because that’s what I hear about most when talking to Black neighbors,friends, and family whose kids are struggling at the bottom 3rd of classes. At this moment, I have a family member who is a freshman who got into a private top 200 institution on AA (SAT score was over 200 points below institutional average along with GPA slightly below the norm) who is barely holding on in school right now. That family member is feeling inferior, defeated and overwhelmed when this did not have to happen. Why did this school let a student in so far below the norm who had taken 0 AP classes and was just a slightly above average student in the 1st place? We both know why. And I have so many stories of those struggles, along with a couple of true successes (who were all very prepared for up front for the rigor). When a large percentage of the bottom of most Ivy leagues classes and schools contain URM, does that matter at all to you? When the percentage of black STEM majors (both of my children are STEM kids) at most elite schools pale in comparison to other student populations, am I supposed to be okay with that? Out of the approximately 450 4-year institutions that use race in admissions, how many kids are falling in the cracks that you conveniently ignore?
@OHMomof2 I don’t think a white man would think or worry about preferences for college like that. About themselves or anyone else, in general. There’s a societal gender advantage for men in general. That advantage is color blind. Imho. And no one doubts the credentials of white guys at work. We wonder how they made it through Harvard as such dummies on occasion. But we don’t wonder or care how they got in. Just doesn’t.
Most people aren’t tracking the vagaries of college admissions like we do here. Not in the world I operate in. But view is as narrow as everyone else’s in that regard.
I should have just used a man vs man comparison. Or woman vs woman.
Honestly. The black professional man would less likely have received the response I made up than the woman.
I believe once a man has become accomplished in their field. The scenario above doesn’t really happen. The combo of good school and great post grad career, levels the playing field.
Quite frankly, women of color have the highest hill to climb. They can be dismissed even later in their careers as being beneficiaries of AA in school and work. Person of color and a woman, many people would look at as receiving a lifetime of preference.
Which brings me back to my question. Does it matter. Yes her feelings are hurt. Or she feels diminished is a way. But she’s cashing the checks and leading the meeting. Isn’t that perhaps more important. Feelings don’t pay for college.
Hmm, what if people who were related to alumni or big donors at the time of admission to S/H/etc. wore signs proclaiming “legacy” or “development” around campus and elsewhere when college graduated from come up?
This is the race in admissions thread. If you look at the totality of input from previous posters this seemed to sum up the concerns.
And outside of cc where people don’t follow this as intently. My scenario does happen and the legacy or hooked type thing doesn’t.
And please please please don’t confuse a hypothetical by taking a portion of a post and making it something it’s not.
Lastly. I think you are right. And it’s wrong to think this and not the others that you mention. I just don’t think that happens in the real world. And there’s a million other threads to look at legacy and wealth. This is a discussion of AA. And I think my hypo speaks to the real life issues faced by poc coming out of so called elite schools. But I’m not an urm.
So I will leave it to my friends to let us know if the scenario and concern I posited is relevant.
I’m really not sure how you think you know what I care about. Or emphasize.
An unprepared student can struggle in college. A prepared student can also struggle. If they succeed, why is it an issue? They struggled and overcame and that is maturing and growing up.
I do EMPHASIZE and CARE ABOUT supporting students who may need it more than others. Colleges have many ways to help - support groups for first gen kids or kids with similar racial or other backgrounds, making sure needs are met for all students (well funded writing/quant centers, additional education for first gens about How Things Work in College - professors love students who go to office hours and how to ask to get into full classes and other skills they may not have). For lower income kids (as you know, significant overlap with URM) , leaving dorms open and meals served on breaks, making funds available for dorm setup or books or unpaid internships or research and so on.
Perhaps not unlike recruited athletes having mandatory study tables. Or uber rich kids hiring private tutors.
Guess what? My ORM D felt inferior and defeated at times, and overwhelmed a lot of the time. In the end it was a tremendous growth opportunity for her. She stretched where she found she could and compromised where she found she couldn’t. She learned how to get help. Why would you deny this opportunity to your family member?
If you want to present some evidence for these claims, I’d be glad to discuss them, But I can’t ignore, conveniently or otherwise, what is not here.
In its absence, I will say that I do not believe STEM is a field everyone should be in. I personally have one kid in and one out and they’re both doing fine, thankyouverymuch.
If you define “falling through the cracks” in some way that isn’t about 4-6 year grad rates, I might be able to answer that question.
I have read a few articles by or about Tony Jack recently. You may know who he is. He has a lot to say about how to prepare URM low income kids for college, and how colleges can prepare for them.
Thinking about it a bit more. Your point is interesting.
Perhaps in the same exact scenario I posted it could be reversed. Both Asian and urm attendees might see the Stanford white guy and think “pff. Probably got in because of daddy’s money or moms a legacy. “. And then when the aa woman from Harvard is introduced they think. “She must be brilliant I should sit and pay attention”
It could go either way. Interesting. I only know my white and male experience. It just wouldn’t bother the white guy in the scenario above. They wouldn’t give it two seconds of thought. Maybe even agree with you. But still not care. In the most general of terms.
Not in that article, but in another, we learn Anthony Jack graduated with honors from Amherst, and was pre-med, excelling in the pre-med classes even without HS prep (his first Chem class was at Amherst - not HS - and that same class made my D, with her AP Chem A-grade/5, cry many times).
He chose to major NOT in STEM, and you cannot argue that it’s because he couldn’t hack it. He hacked it excellently, just wanted a different career. And he has one.
On paper @ChangeTheGame , you’d have us feel sorry for this unprepared kid who didn’t stay in STEM. Instead he’s a Harvard professor with a best selling book. Boo hoo.
Found the article. It’s from when he was a college senior. He had a 1200 SAT when he applied. Amherst average was 1422.
@privatebanker Being a legacy or wealthy isn’t visible, it’s true. But I think you’d find some college athletes who are tired of being seen as dumb jocks, people who got in on athletic but not academic ability.
If you leverage your great degree and become successful independently -you won’t wear the dumb jock label for long. And it’s more of self imposed concern than reality.
At least in banking and finance. I don’t think processionals in medicine, politics or government care either.
I’ve recently read about a black athlete who just became an astronaut. No one who matters will question him. Or anyone that isn’t a Neanderthal and who gives a rats butt what they think. The process is too hard and too merit based. Like medicine too.
Results and accomplishment drive respect. Not where you went to school. Don’t peak in college is all I would suggest.
People lose sight of this because they just haven’t experienced life in this inside of ib pr or hedge fund world that are often mentioned on cc. The 20 somethings care because they are still jostling for position.
Later no one cares. Really. CEOs of the fortune 100 count 14 Ivy leaguers at the top. Less in total than the top 6 public schools on the list. No one questions the CEOs school creds. Or if they do no one cares.
@OHMomof2 Question about your daughter. Was she above or below the median at her school of choice for GPA/standardized test requirements? Because I would expect students at the 25th percentile or below for one or both criteria to have a much harder time than students starting out at the higher end of that distribution. One can make it at the lower end of the distribution and do well but must have study habits, work ethic, and not be afraid to reach out for resources when needed. Race doesn’t matter, but where you come in does, but URM students are affected more because they make up a larger percentage of the bottom 25th percentile of students (See Harvard’s Academic Index by race for one such example). I do not have any proof of my 1st point on URM being at the lower ranges of their college classes, but I have seen what has happened in my sphere and it is not good. I would love for someone to either report or run such a study (decile GPA rankings of college seniors by race), but I believe that it would be politicized to no end, just like the Duke study we talked about on this thread before that showed that African American students at Duke switch out of STEM majors into social sciences and humanities majors at statistically significant higher rates that white students. Since I am in metro Atlanta and know many URM students who attend and have attended Georgia Tech, I have seen a similar phenomenon occur as GT is know for “weeding out” students in certain majors.
I actually do know who Tony Jack is and his conclusions on the “privileged poor” is something I have observed in my own experiences and I have talked about on this thread. AA actually does less for students from low performing schools in favor of those who have found a way to magnet/boarding schools (which was Tony Jack’s own story). What I love about Tony Jack’s story is that he would have succeeded no matter what was in front of him and I have some friends just like him who have gone on to do amazing things with lower test scores. But to believe that he or my friends are the norm is a big mistake.
These are cost-adjusted funding levels, not actual funding levels. Lower cost-adjusted funding levels can be a reflection of > 75% non-white districts being located in higher cost of living areas.
All references I have seen suggest Black students average lower GPAs than other races at all levels of education, regardless of whether AA is present or not. A similar effect occurs in males. Males average lower GPAs than females at all levels of education, regardless of whether major is controlled for or gender preferences exist. While racial admission preferences generally aren’t helping the GPA gap, the reasons for this relationship are complex and go beyond racial admissions preferences.
For example, the student at https://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=student looks at what characteristics predict cummulative GPA of students at Cornell. The model was able to explain only ~24% of variance in GPA. What variance in GPA they could explain among Black students didn’t follow HS GPA and test scores well. The only statistically significant analyzed predictor of GPA among Black students at Cornell was gender – female students averaged higher grades than males in all races. The author writes,
Cornell students obvious have some severe range restriction issues. The study at https://theop.princeton.edu/reports/wp/RaceEthnicDifferences.pdf uses a similar model to try to predict cumulative GPA of students at 10 Texas public colleges that have far wider range of stats. With controls for major, HS class rank, test scores, HS effects, and various other things; they were able to explain ~30% of variance in cumulative GPA, with the specific percentage varying by college. Among students with similar stats, being Black and being male were two of the strongest predictors of having a lower GPA (UTSA is exception for which only being male was strong predictor). Being male was also a strong predictor of having grades low enough for academic probation among students with similar stats and other controls, but being Black generally was not after controlling for HS effects and other variables.
**Average First Year GPA at Brooklyn Tech/b
White Female – 88%
Asian Female – 88%
Hispanic Female – 85%
Black Female – 84%
White Male – 83%
Asian Male – 83%
Hispanic Male – 80%
Black Male – 78%
The Duke study you referenced also found a notable difference in GPA between races. The Harvard senior survey showed more mild differences, but a similar pattern occurs. Asian students at Harvard averaged the highest GPA (3.7), and URMs averaged the lowest GPA (3.55).
All selective colleges report graduation rate by race in IPEDS. A similar pattern emerges in graduation rate. However, the differences in graduation rate between races are generally larger at the few selective colleges that do not practice AA than at comparable ones that do. Some numbers from an earlier post are below:
Graduation Rate by Race at 6 Selective Publics with Highest Graduation Rate
Virginia – 95% White, 91% Black
William & Mary – 93% White, 90% Black
UNCH – 92% White, 85% Black
UCLA* – 91% White, 83% Black
Michigan* – 92% White, 80% Black
Berkeley* – 91% White, 71% Black
*No Racial Admission Preferences
Graduation Rate by Race at Various Selective Privates
Yale – 98% White, 100% Black
Princeton – 98% White, 97% Black
Harvard – 98% White, 94% Black
Duke – 95% White, 95% Black
Swarthmore – 95% White, 95% Black
Williams – 94% White, 95% Black
Cornell – 94% White, 92% Black
Amherst – 94% White, 89% Black
Harvey Mudd – 92% White, 100% Black
MIT – 93% White, 88% Black
Caltech* – 92% White, 80% Black
*No Racial Admission Preferences
I think there are many contributing factors. Note that the studies above are explaining only ~30% of variance in GPA at best. The other 70% of variance that is not explained by stats, major, income level, HS characteristics, parents education, … is important and may depend on things like academic preparedness, internal motivations/variables, and environmental variables. This lack of relevant considerations also may explain why notable gaps exist without racial preferences. For example, if the NYC HSs considered more than just scores in admission decisions, I expect the GPA gap between genders would close significantly. The larger amount of admission considerations beyond stats may also contribute to why there was generally a smaller graduation gap at the more holistic colleges. The Duke study found these additional variables to be relevant for sticking with planned major, particularly HS curriculum. Environmental factors are also relevant, including colleges offering more of a support network to assist struggling students, having academic role models (both in and out of college), and having other students in a similar position to increase sense of belonging.
@Data10 Thank you for the helpful data. What your data shows makes sense based off of what I have seen. I have seen lower grades at all levels for URM students with African American men pulling up the rear with respect to HS GPA, rigor, standardized testing and College GPAs. I have seen some of these struggles up close and I can see some of them coming due to not taking the rigor necessary to prepare for the next level (which includes building study skills and work ethic).
For me personally, it can be hard to break out the variables that @Data10 provided when some of them (SES, parental involvement, two parent households) are a direct result of the breakdown of the African American family unit that touch a vast majority of our households. So many URM and particularly African Americans are not where they need to be to compete academically and it is a complex mixture of causes. But throwing AA into the mix (versus looking for the Tony Jack’s of every race with low SES), causes its own issues, because of the shallow depth of the certain student pools causes some big reaches as you go further down . The Harvard’s of the world will always get the best talent of all races, but what happens when you get down to the school ranked 175 on the USNWR list?