OK well I think that AA will eventually have to go away as we move forward, however I still think that diversity in admissions will always be a player.
This is the important question. How can you have diversity without AA?
AA is a race only consideration, diversity has many facets.
I agree that diversity is a good thing. I am just looking for a little more creativity and imagination (other than current AA policy) to help URM children compete.
It is amazing how similar our philosophies align.
Your kids and @ChangeTheGame’s kids are truly impressive. I’m sure you are both wonderful parents and your actions helped shape them. But please remember that there is also an element of luck here. Thousands of parents read to their children every night and provide a nurturing, loving and stimulating environment and don’t have straight A kids who are in every honors and gifted program. Being gifted is a privilege as much as any other. The problem is that just as white people and wealthy people and so many others don’t realize their privilege, naturally gifted people and their parents often don’t realize or acknowledge theirs.
So, please remember, that the parents of B students read to them too.
Ideally, the improvements would be to improve and equalize opportunity to gain merit so that trying to adjust things at admission gateways would not be seen as needed at the blanket preference level (as opposed to possibly some individually determined cases).
The problem is that:
A. Many proponents of affirmative action at admission gateways appear to give up on improving and equalizing opportunity to gain merit at prior stages, since doing that is a much more difficult task (and involves dealing with very diffuse problems, such as at locally controlled K-12 school districts).
B. Many opponents of affirmative action at admission gateways appear to disregard the inequality of opportunity to gain merit, apparently believing that the inequality of merit presented by applicants is based mainly on inherent intellectual inequality (i.e. that some races, or kids from lower income families, or other underrepresented groups, are inherently less intelligent).
So around and around we go, arguing about what should or should not be done at admission gateways… where none of the possible policies limited to admission gateways will give a satisfactory result.
No. Inequality of merit is likely due to academic laziness. The New York Times clearly cited many districts where achievement gaps are persistent when everyone is on equal socioeconomic footing. Minorities have no incentive to try because of AA.
Further, basic classroom discipline and respect is severely lacking in very-well funded minority schools, which is an “inequality of opportunity” of their own doing. When discipline is enforced, racism is always to blame, and districts stop the discipline because of fear, further exacerbating the problem.
It’s a fallacy to conflate URM status with inequality of opportunity. You can be poor and white or poor and Asian. Alternatively, you can be rich or middle class and African American.
I grew up under what many would consider for criteria for inequality of opportunity to gain merit (poor, black male in a one parent household). Being poor did hinder some opportunities, but household mindsets (cultural mindsets) towards education have just as much of an effect on merit/achievement. I definitely don’t believe in the inherent intellectual inequality theory and I am an opponent of AA, but there is never enough focus on fixing lower level problems (reading comprehension) that could turn the tide with regards to closing early achievement gaps.
I don’t disagree with your comments about classroom discipline not being upheld, but a teacher could let me know of an issue with my kids once, and they would never have to worry about that particular problem again. Discipline starts at home for my family and I made sure my kids knew what lines not to cross.
I think there’s more evil in AA than just potential mismatch effects it has on it’s supposed beneficiaries (which are many—in fact, I believe that the extreme low number of African Americans and Latinos in the sciences can be partially attributed to this. And by the way, most students at elite graduate programs in pure sciences I have seen come from flagship state schools, LACs, and places like UChicago or Caltech, where the social norm is to go to graduate school and not some prestige industry or medicine).
For me, the real evil is the way it divides our society and gives value to individuals by virtue of their race. I have seen so many of my Asian American students feel shame for their race (which doesn’t happen with the Chinese internationals). They are told time and time again that being Asian is harmful, and high school guidance counselors and college consultants warn them against participating in activities that are too stereotypically Asian (where for any other race those activities would be considered virtuosic). Asians also face extreme structural disadvantage, but the effects of all that racism are lessened by the highly selective immigration of SOME subgroups (also a form of racism, by the way). Discrimination in admissions can be quantified, but no one wants to do anything about it, either because Asians are doing “good enough” or they aren’t diverse or there’s simply too many of them.
You know, in the middle part of the last century, Jews were discriminated against in admissions in the same way as Asians are now. Not just in Harvard but all across North America. Colleges such as CUNY and MIT thrived by treating Jewish students fairly at a time when others did not, just as Caltech and UC Irvine are doing today. When will we get out of this ridiculous mindset of categorizing people by skin color so we can finally achieve real justice and learn from the mistakes of the past?
Probably not.
I’m torn on AA. I agree with you that it’s hard having the stigma undermine their personal achievements. It’s like having a Scarlett Letter of sorts for students as accomplished as your children. But it’s getting better. And it’s not fair that white kids with preferences aren’t quite as easy to identify. People won’t make a judgement on their merit just because of how they look from an AA standpoint.
My daughter went to what usnwr ranked as the 32nd or something best public high school in America. And number one in Florida. Lottery school and all the brightest kids in Brevard County apply. It’s really lucky to get in and ap classes are the expectation. 100 percent of the graduating class went on to attend a four year college.
My d22 was val. 4.0uw 1530 sat and 35 act. 13 aps with two 4s a s 11 5s Nice leadership. Only girl on academic decathlon team and two year captain of the lax team but not a star athlete. Likable kid and solid writer. R at h as a legacy rd. Wl at Bowdoin rd brown rd and gtown. Def ea and Wl rd. The only kids in her school admitted to an Ivy League schools were five of her best friends. All Hispanic or AA. It seemed that in a weird way initially they felt guilty they got in after knowing the basic backgrounds of each other. But as in all things people all move on.
I only tell you this because I think it’s better that they are going than her. And if it was AA we don’t care. We are thrilled for them. My d is going to a really great school. She will have no debt. She will have opportunities laid at her feet and she will never have to worry about finances ever. Her girlfriends all needed significant help. None of them would have landed with an opportunity to change the economic trajectory for five American families. And this can cascade.
And Who gives a hoot if some helicopter mom or dad makes a comment about jimmy getting passed over. Jimmy will be just fine.
Somebody had to walk into the doors of u Alabama that first day. And today’s kids one generation later are walking into hpysm and everywhere else. The next generation it probably won’t even be noticed. Eventually it will all even out. But for now, i think it works.
@privatebanker EXACTLY!!!
“Jimmy will be just fine.”!!!
Months ago on this thread I mentioned my own personal high school experience. I went to a high school that was an “experiment” for lack of a better word (they merged two districts). The net of it is my school was about 40% black, 40% white, and 10% Hispanic and Asian. Of the whites, we were mostly Catholic and Jewish, some Wasps. Perhaps the most interesting thing of all was that we were all technically middle class. The white neighborhoods were probably overall a little nicer, but no one lived in poverty and most people lived in perfectly fine homes their parents owned.
My best friend was a WASP. I am Catholic. I was ranked 3rd, she was ranked 4th. I was first gen, she was not. Her parents had money and went to college, mine did not. She had a private SAT tutor (scored higher than me) I went in cold. She typed her essays, I hand wrote them at my dining room table. She was a four year all county athlete (parents were able to afford to send her to expensive sports programs since she was little), I was a cheerleader. We literally applied to all of the same schools. She was rejected from Cornell, UPenn, and Georgetown. Accepted Lehigh and Colgate (she went to Colgate). I was waitlisted Cornell (got in as with that guaranteed sophomore thing they did), waitlisted U Penn, waitlisted at Georgetown after applying ED and being deferred (they had ED then!), Accepted Lehigh and BC. I went to BC.
There were two black women in the top ten with us. One went to MIT, the other Brown. Both women are doctors today and they are amazing people. As is my friend (who is an executive at a Fortune 100 company). I believe the one that went to Brown is an OBGYN that serves and underserved community through some kind of health center (giving back!). Actually, I think other doctor is also giving back quite a bit in her role as a doctor.
Georgetown was my number one. I didn’t get in off of the waitlist (proud to have a daughter there now, btw, but also equally proud to have another daughter at BC right now too, about to graduate with a great job lined up). The boy ranked 50th in our class of 200 (reminder, I was third) with lower SAT scores than me went to Georgetown. He was black and he was a good friend of mine. I knew why he got in and I didn’t, but as @privatebanker describes his daughters felt, it was OK with me. I don’t hold it against anyone. (He is also an executive at a Fortune 500 firm).
I am just trying to paint a picture of how AA rolled out in my little corner of the world. We all did OK. I never had any interest in becoming a doctor, but had I gone to Georgetown over BC, I’m not sure it would have made a difference.
My black friends deserved their spots at the more elite schools. They were smart and they got through just fine. Just because my WASP friend and I didn’t get in, doesn’t mean our friends didn’t belong there. THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY SPOTS!! I think this dissection of stats that many people are doing to “prove” AA should go away is hurting our society.
Here’s the most important lesson from my upbringing and perhaps why I am an advocate for AA…
My best friend in third grade was a black girl. I went to her house for dinner and saw that her mom made fried potatoes just like mine. She came to my house and was able to see similarities between our families as well. Our parents continued to run into each other around town for many, many years later and always stopped to talk after they kissed hello.
My best friend, the WASP, had a hispanic boyfriend and then a black boyfriend. It was VERY common for blacks and whites to date. This was completely normal in our high school.
I was co-captain with a black girl on the cheerleading team. We were so close!!! We met all the time to plan things together, laughed together, and we worked so well together.
Our valedictorian was Muslim. (She never told anyone this…we figured it out later…she and her brother told everyone they were “Persian”). She went to Brown and then Harvard Law. She quit her corporate law firm job years ago and runs a HOMELESS SHELTER IN CONNECTICUT. (I have no idea if AA helped her, btw…based on todays rules, it probably didn’t, but not sure if back then her unique background was a hook…but she was valedictorian, so…)
I could go on and on, but the point I am trying to make is that on a social level (and overall economic level) we were equals. Maybe because there was so much diversity that no one felt like the minority is part of the reason why, but for whatever reason it worked. Leaving for college was eyeopening experience for me, not because it exposed me to people from diverse backgrounds, but because it exposed me to how many people are unfamiliar with people from diverse backgrounds (isn’t it supposed to be the other way around??)…I guess living in the productive little diverse universe I lived in growing up was actually the bubble. But I feel like AA (and other policies that get at helping underserved communities before college application time) could move us more to a world like my high school, which I now fully realize was the exception, not the rule.
With all due respect @OhiBro, I don’t think you mean to sound racist, but do you realize how racist these sweeping generalizations sound from your #4306 post?
“Minorities have no incentive to try because of AA.”
“Further, basic classroom discipline and respect is severely lacking in very-well funded minority schools, which is an “inequality of opportunity” of their own doing.”
Can’t you see that just the mere fact that you are making such generalizations about how 1. all minorities have no incentive and 2. “Inequality of opportunity” of THEIR own doing??
You are lumping people together just because of “their” race. I am working with a black boy who works very hard in school and is studying for the SAT a lot…he has incentive and he is black. And what about the kids stuck in the classrooms that ARE disciplined but their parents can’t afford to live in a town that has more controlled classrooms?
Think about what you are saying when you make such generalizations.
Someone can be both Persian and Muslim.
Nobody gives a hoot if helicopter parents make comments like that. That isn’t the problem. The problem arises if helicopter mom is also the managing partner of a law firm and begins to question if the URM graduates of a particular college were as qualified as the non-URM candidates based on her observations of AA. This potentially impacts how and if the firm hires, how and if the firm promotes, etc.
Nobody cares or should care about disgruntled parents upset that their child was passed over based on AA. And @privatebanker you can be magnanimous about how you are OK with these URM candidates being selected over candidates that you take great pains to describe as being more qualified, but that impression - the URMs were less qualified sticks with you. When you have a medical issue and your new doc walks in the room if s/he is URM will you remember this story and wonder about how qualified that doc is or will you go back to the idea that it’s OK if this person wasn’t as qualified because of the greater social good? Hard to know until you’re in that situation.
Everybody should care if employers, customers, patients, clients and others start to believe that URM college graduates aren’t as capable and qualified as nonURM graduates. Nobody wants to think their oncologist was admitted to med school due to anything other than being one of the best candidates regardless of color. Perception matters. And AA is creating doubt that is unfair to the qualified URM graduates.
@ucbalumnus I’m well aware of that. My point is they never told people they were Muslim. They apparently didn’t feel comfortable doing so.
Yes, AA is creating doubt but it doesn’t have to be that way. People need to stop thinking that way and start giving people the benefit of the doubt. Starting with people on this thread.
As it relates to doctors, you can check to see if they passed their boards. And if Harvard or whatever school accepted them because of AA, maybe we should just accept the fact that if Harvard thought they were worthy of a spot, then they indeed were worthy of a spot.
I heard the kid at Stanford that was part of the cheating scandal is being kicked out, and it seems like the girl at Georgetown might be as well. Not sure up until now if anyone questioned their worthiness (I realize the Georgetown girl was hispanic, but came from a very wealthy family and looks no more ethnic than my unhooked white girl daughter that is there).
I simply don’t agree with the argument that AA should go away because there are people out there that don’t respect their degrees or distinguished roles in society because they just assume they got there because of AA. Come on people…not everyone feels that way. And when you come across people that do, tell them you disagree with them. Unless of course you don’t.
Assuming nobody will ever question the candidates due to AA is about as realistic as the fervent belief that communism is viable. Both make so much sense on paper and in the absence of human emotion and behavior and so little sense in actual practice.
Yes, we’ll all just hold hands and believe things into being… it will be perfect. Everybody will be equal, nobody will need a thing, people will not resent, people will not doubt…
Honestly, do you quiz your doctor to see if he was a recruited athlete?
Silly.