"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

Applying to College
4601

“for example, they also found that Asians underperformed when they looked at GPA’s, and controlled for variables such as SAT scores - contrary to stereotype.”

I perused the book but couldn’t find if they controlled for major, because if they didn’t, that would be a flaw. An Asian kid getting a 4.0 in HS and a 3.5 at MIT or Cal Tech majoring in Electrical Engineering, which happens quite a bit, is not underperforming. Now if Asians, whites, URMs all had a 4.0 (or close to it) and entered the same university and similar majors (say engineering or econ at Berkeley) and the Asians had a lower GPA, that would be significant and against type, agree there.

4602

The reason I included the comment about the Asians underperforming was to highlight the problems with drawing broad conclusions from the data, which does fail to account for all sorts of variables, and which is based an artificial construct.

I understand why the social scientists decided to go to the trouble of computing class rank, given all the vagaries of grade inflation. But the point is that colleges don’t typical rank students at any but the top deciles (which qualify for honors based on criteria that vary from one college to the next). And grades don’t do a very good job of indicating how much the student has learned or benefited from a class, both because grading practices and rigour of courses differ from one college to another, and because it also differs within different courses and departments of each college.

If you have two students enrolled in an intro level calculus course – and one has completed AP Calculus BC in high school, and the other is coming from a high school that didn’t even offer AP Calc – the respective grades tell you nothing about the quality of learning that has taken place. And if another student who completed the BC level AP course and scored 5 on the AP exam opts to enroll in a higher level calculus course to start with? Which are the better students? The ones who are challenging themselves, or the one who is opting for an easier, GPA-protecting route?

So the 20+ year old factoid about African American students at selective colleges finishing last becomes an argument against AA – when the real takeaway from the data is that students who attend more selective colleges are much more likely to graduate, and their GPA’s might also end up being better because of grade inflation / grade compression at the more selective schools. And if the goal of AA is to give students who have been historically discriminated against and/or who are coming from schools that don’t offer a level of preparation comparable to the students coming from more financially or educationally privileged backgrounds – then it is shifting the goal posts to measure their performance against those who were ahead of them to start.

Anyway – that’s why I wanted to see the actual data – and why I felt it useful to dig deeper. I’m a lawyer by training, so I understand how easy it is to root around and find whatever facts seem to best support an argument — but I don’t like it when the “facts” are fostering a defeatist attitude. That is, I’m 100% in favor of a high-achieving African American student opting to attend an HBCU because of all the wonderful and supportive qualities that make HBCU’s stand out … but find it disheartening to think that any student would be deterred from attending a prestigious elite college because of that sort of data point.

4603

More selective colleges select stronger incoming students, so of course they will have higher graduation rates than less selective colleges. This does not necessarily mean that a specific student who attends a more selective college that s/he can be admitted to will have a higher chance of graduating than if s/he attends a less selective college.

HBCUs tend to have low graduation rates because most are not very selective (since most non-black students avoid HBCUs, the HBCUs can effectively recruit from a limited portion of potential college students who can also be recruited by non-HB colleges), but do tend to have better graduation rate performance (i.e. graduation rate versus that expected from incoming student academic characteristics) for black students than non-HB colleges.

4604

Excellent points @calmom .

@ucbalumnus your point about grad rates overall notwithstanding (I agree, better HS students tend to graduate from college on time), there is ample evidence that those NOT born on third base (in terms of SES, race, parents etc) do in fact benefit from going to a more elite college. That takes the form of higher income after, but I suspect a college where nearly everyone stays and graduates in 4 years and very few drop out or transfer makes a difference too.

I saw that environment difference at play with my own two kids.

4605

Except, this isn’t the goal of AA. AA benefits those who come from financially and educationally privileged backgrounds. To pretend AA only applies to poor kids from bad schools isn’t accurate and is it’s own form of shifting the goal posts.

4606

Well, more selective colleges also tend to offer stronger need-based aid and have stronger resources (such as advising) – so there are a lot of factors impacting graduation rates, not just the individual student’s strengths. But my point really isn’t to argue one way or another, but rather to show how the data has been misconstrued or manipulated by whomever has cherry-picked the specific data point that supports an argument. (I’m not saying that @ChangeTheGame is that whomever – but rather the various places that have repeated that “bottom 20%” assertion again and again over the years. I’m very glad that he was able to point me toward the original source, because I never would have found it on my own and that is exactly what I was looking for).

The data was NOT comparing rates at HBCU’s vs. elite colleges – but rather was taken from surveys at NSCE schools. (" We find, for instance, that the odds of graduating are twice as large if a student enrolls at one of the most selective NSCE schools as compared to entering a school in the lowest selectivity tier. ")

So I don’t have any quibble with the assertion that HBCU’s are positive educational environments for their students.

It’s only the idea that there is some sort of predictive statistic impacting how well any given African American student who is accepted at an elite college will end up doing – or the idea that their class standing is even important or significant when weighed against the fact that by definition these students will have earned degrees from well-regarded colleges.

4607

I assume when discussing HBCUs with a less optimal national brand as being mentioned in posts and perceived low selectivity (including within the AA community) we are excluding Spelman, Howard, Morehouse?

I have the opposite personal understanding of those brands. They are widely respected and considered elite in my own world view. I don’t know the world lol. I’m only speaking for myself. However they have a lot of cache in the world of finance and banking imho. Grambling to a lesser extent too.

4608

@ChangeTheGame wrote:

[quote]
Again, graduating is good, having a large percentage of African Americans at the bottom of classes is bad/quote

But my point is, aside from the age of the data – the concept of “bottom of classes” is pretty much an artificial construct, because colleges generally don’t report on class rank - and within a university students and professors at large are generally unaware of the theoretical ranking of their peers. Within a particular class or department – yes, they are going to have a sense of who the best and worst students are. But there is no way that anyone is going to know or care that student A who majored in chemistry has a much worse GPA than student B who majored in history. They know who the stars are — who is making dean’s list, who qualifies for Latin honors at graduation, who makes phi beta kappa. But the way colleges work pretty much breaks down into a top cohort of around 30% or so… and everyone else.

And unless and until there is recent data – taking into account all that has changed in terms of overall college selectivity and level of high school preparation over the past two decades – as well as some sort of data that at least breaks out the class ranking paradigm in a way that is meaningfully tied to difficulty of major and to level of student preparation coming in – I think all you are looking at is relatively insignificant historical data.

Well we do have more recent data about graduation rates as correlated to school selectivity, because that IS the sort of data that is reported and compiled regularly. I just chose to focus on what was in the source that was cited.

4609

Wow, lots of good posts yesterday while I was dropping my son off at CMU for the SAMS summer program.

@EconPop Thank you for the kind words. I don’t deserve it, but I just want people to know that perception matters and AA distorts how top URM students are viewed and in some cases how they view elite PWIs. The experiences that you chronicled are consistent with my own experiences of high achieving black families that I have encountered where those kids have many options and they can all be pretty good ones.

@calmom I don’t believe that the data that was cited has changed significantly (for better or worse). What has happened in the last 20 years that would have encouraged a change? But the real purpose for highlighting that data is to show we (African Americans) are not producing equally as a group in the classroom. Every observation that I have seen 1st hand (and through others as well) points to that same conclusion. Why is that such a bad thing to say?

We can not fix problems and do better if people keep believing that their are no problems. And I am always going to have a problem with African Americans not having the same levels of achievement. It is okay that you do not care or believe in such measures, but I believe a component of student happiness is tied into how one is fairing in their classes. A large majority of students that I have dealt with have a general idea of where they stand in relation to others in their major. If you want even more elite African American students to attend top PWIs, let them succeed like the student body as a whole in EVERY way and you will see the stereotypes and perceptions change.

@privatebanker Morehouse, Spelman, and Howard are all top tier institutions, and while they are not ever put into the same category as elite PWIs from what I have seen, I like your thinking. My own perspective (and I have seen others talk about this) is that one could just get rid of things like USNWR rankings and look at a list of the largest endowments to get a similar listing of schools.

4610

Well, for one thing the selective colleges have gotten radically MORE selective over the years.

But that’s not what the data shows – it does not make any distinction at all as to major. It lumps all schools, all majors together.

I am not denying that problems exist. I’m just looking for real data rather than anecdotes.

And I’d much prefer to see data tied to meaningful and replicable metrics.

4611

@calmom

The number total number of African American students at top elite schools show a different trend. I have taken the The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education (JBHE) which publishes a yearly total of data from a set of the top schools in the country and just went back 6 years (Comparing class of 2012 to class of 2018). Despite a good amount of the schools showing drops in the amount of accepted students (U of Chicago is accepting 1,016 less students in 6 years!) every elite school that provided the data for the amount of accepted black student is showing an INCREASE in the number of Black students accepted. and only 1 school (CMU) has a decrease in the number of Black students attending (due to a loss of yield among black students). So while Selective colleges have truly gotten more selective for other groups, African Americans are showing net gains in the number of attendees at these schools. Hope that this data set helps because it shows why the slot

_______AllBlackBlack
School/YR Accepted Accepted Attendees
Vanderbilt 2012 4034411__155
Vanderbilt 2018 3298NR_____229

Harvard U 2012 2032NR___150
Harvard U 2018 1962NR______240

Columbia U 2012 2362NR__201
Columbia U 2018 2260NR____221

MIT 2012______1620NR__91
MIT 2018_____1464164_____111

Stanford U 2012 2423233142
Stanford U 2018 2072NR_____172

Duke U 2012_3193NR_181
Duke U 20184087NR___198

UNC 2012____7847799__382
UNC 2018___95241081____495

U Chicago 2012 3363NR113
U Chicago 2018 2347329____167

Rice U 2012 2528200_64
Rice U 20182328308_____104

U PENN 20123935NR__272
U PENN 20183740549_295

Georgetown 2012 3413335__126
Georgetown 2018 3321398____185

UVA 2012_______8031508_188
UVA 2018 ___9828996____357

CMU 2012____474832696
CMU 2018___4170336_____82

Emory U 2012__4599460_120
Emory U 20185104701____155

JHU 2012____3626381102
JHU 2018___3089487_____146

Wake Forest 2012 3875299__87
Wake Forest 2018 3803341____115

USC 2012___11957696_248
USC 201810769891______291

4612

Which colleges does “elite PWIs” intend to describe? Most of what are commonly seen as elite universities are now under 50% white (not Hispanic or Latino) for undergraduate enrollment (Dartmouth, WUStL, and Georgetown are marginal exceptions at 50-53%; Notre Dame is the most obvious outlier at 69%), though some others may be right around 50% among domestic students. Those seen as elite LACs are more likely to be significantly more than 50% white (e.g. W&L 82%, Davidson 67%, Middlebury 63%, Hamilton 63%, Bowdoin 62%, Carleton 60%).

4613

@ChangeTheGame - I honestly don’t follow your logic.

I commented about changes over two decades (mid 1990’s vs. now) – and you posted stats covering 6 years. (2012 vs. 2018).

4614

@calmom I was just showing that as college admissions gets more and more competitive (and the drop in admissions rates have really dropped in the last 6 years), the amount of African Americans on those campuses continues to grow or at a minimum stay steady… But fear not. The JBHE has been capturing that data for over 40 years and I will attach a document that shows that from 1980 to 2005 at top National Universities and at top LACs the number of African Americans on those campuses have grown or held steady for most top schools despite the amazing growth in selectivity during that time frame.

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/50_blackenrollments.html

4615

But what does the number of African American’s enrolling have to do with the question of how well they do once enrolled?

4616

@calmom We are just not on the same page. I could show you the gaps in the SAT, ACT, GRE, GMAT, MCAT, LSAT, Advanced Placement Program, and the National Assessment of Educational Progress and you would blame testing bias. I can show you black high school drop out rates, the fact that African American women receive almost 2/3 of all college degrees among African Americans (where are the black men at), or show you the most comprehensive report I have ever seen on black achievement levels at a group of colleges a few pages back after you basically didn’t believe any data exists and then call the data presented as outdated. When you say that admissions has gotten more selective was the reason that those achievement levels from 20 years ago might have changed, I show you that the admissions levels haven’t gotten nearly as hard for African Americans (growth in percentages at top schools). I wish you good luck in your future endeavors.

Black people (and URMs in general) have to be careful of people who will continue make excuses for our failures (especially among ourselves), because that mental state will continue generation after generation. The African American students who are achieving at the highest levels academically are not making excuses, and are achieving in spite of any obstacles that are placed in front of them. AA has been a good try at trying to make amends for past wrongs, but has created a new set of wrongs and creates a stigma for the students that it is purportedly helping.

4617

One of my favorite commentator is Kishore Mahbubani. Imho, what he has to say about Singapore is instructive not just on a national level but on an individual level as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJUkJKUx3Vo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uGTio8vLds
@ChangeTheGame , do you agree with him?

4618

@Canuckguy I have never heard of Kishore Mahbubani before looking at the links you posted, but the story of Singapore and its people is inspirational. I am not sure if Americans could ever come together in that way (besides having an adversary to go to war with) as we are a fractured people that have divided into subgroups. AA is a program that has kept us divided philosophically. Working to overcome that philosophical divide and find real solutions has been my hope for this thread.

That solution starts with identifying the large achievement gaps (instead of insisting they don’t exist, or insisting bias is the entire cause of the testing gaps seen over and over), and then look at systematic ways to improve those results for underrepresented minorities affected by these gaps (instead of using a systematic way to discriminate against a group or groups of people).

I have spent a lot of time talking about some of the factors that cause African Americans to have lower achievement given my background, and addressing those factors head on within Black communities, because no amount of help from our society at large will change the narrative without a cultural revolution that brings Black men back to our families and Black families cherishing the role that education can play in uplifting a historically downtrodden people.

4619

However, Singapore is not an idealized non-racial society, in that governmental measures regarding race are enforced. For example, race classification is required on birth certificates (such classification is the basis of various race-based policies there), and public housing is subject to racial quotas to avoid the tendency of people to form self-segregated racial enclaves. There are also racial requirements regarding candidates for elected offices.

4620

@ChangeTheGame -I like Mahbubani’s concept of Meritocracy, Pragmatism, and Honesty. Applying it on a personal level, honesty with oneself is the starting point to a solution. It is so easy to play the blame game generation after generation, but how is that going to help anybody?

I don’t believe degree completion rate is a good measure of progress. We can hide the problem by simply add easy courses and programs and claim success. JBHE highlights the real problem annually. This article is the 3rd time I have seen it:

https://www.jbhe.com/2017/02/academic-disciplines-where-african-americans-earned-no-doctoral-degrees-in-2015/

You are absolutely correct that the achievement gap is there; I suspect it will take a long time to correct it.