@queenmother I call BS on that math teacher. That explanation does not even make sense and if even one student has been recommended for AP from that teacher, that story completely falls apart. Advocacy for your child is definitely needed.
I don’t see why pushing for academic excellence versus wanting a cooperative environment and giving back to one’s community (your example) have to be mutually exclusive of one another.
Every one of my son’s extra curricular activities is based around community service, tutoring those in need, and our Church. He loves a collaborative environment where everyone gets what they need to learn. That does not stop him from being a 3.84 UW/35 ACT/high AP scoring student who has large long term goals, but it does mean that HBCUs and top 50 schools are in play, because he is looking for the best fit as far as academics and a collaborative environment. He knows that “education” is more than just grades, but to devalue the importance of academic achievement does not help African Americans excel at the world at large. He can literally have it all (Academic achievements at the highest levels so he has to be competitive and to have civic minded goals to make his community and the world a better place).
I was responding to a comment by a different poster, but suffice it to say that the fact that you equate a 35 ACT with academic achievement means that you and I have very different definitions and perspectives as to what is of educational value.
I can explain what a 35 ACT means to me. It means likely full rides to almost all HBCUs, and possible access with other parameters to some of the top academic institutions in America. I would say that counts for some educational value (getting into the educational institution of my son’s choice and some of those choices will be free). I am glad that you live in an idyllic place were those scores don’t matter or have similar educational value.
For my son, that score ends up being validation at the tippy top schools and makes AA not matter nearly as much (less likely to get questioned about his credentials). It would actually be weird if my perspective (I still see the world partly through the lenses of trying to make it out of my inner city neighborhood) and yours matched up at all, but we both seem to like CC.
“that you equate a 35 ACT with academic achievement”
But most people would equate ACT of 35 with academic achievement, including the ACT itself and colleges. What else outside of gpa and test scores would constitute academic achievement? Are you saying volunteering or playing a sport is an academic achievement? That would be a very interesting position to take.
But I’m not really interested in debating you on this. If you see everything through the lens of grades and test scores, so be it. My point is that many others have a broader viewpoint, and it is incorrect to characterize those who have differing educational philosophies and priorities as not valuing education.
I’d add that to value a high score because of the merit aid opportunities it opens up is valuing a prize, not education. I’m not saying that it’s wrong to want that – but there are plenty of people who would rather see their kids engaged in meaningful exploration than prepping for tests.
I see this is a narrower viewpoint than the one my family lives by which is okay… My son put in 10-15 minutes a day over the summer (Free Khan Academy SAT questions prepared based off of the concepts that he had the most issues with). 1 test, 35 ACT score and done with all standardized testing by September (ACT)/October (PSAT) of Junior year. Plenty of time for him to “learn for the sake of learning” including this summer at Carnegie Mellon (I am sure that his ACT did not hurt his application). He gets to soak up more math, coding, robotics, and learning about AI concepts which he loves. My son is a tinkerer, a burgeoning history buff, amateur food critic, YouTube “creator” and above all else a scholar/future humanitarian. He can have it all and the time he put into standardized test prep has already helped him see a wider array of educational opportunities.
Intellectual curiosity and exposure to the World at large has been a big part of my family’s growth and our main priority is to excel, enjoy, and give back to the world. My son’s ACT score gets him one step closer to his ultimate objectives (whether it is consider it an academic achievement doesn’t really matter to me, because the standardized testing/academics tandem has saved my family over 1 million dollars in the last 25 years so the schools themselves certainly think they have some importance).
“I’d add that to value a high score because of the merit aid opportunities it opens up is valuing a prize, not education.”
Agree with ucbalumnus, merit prizes are used as a means by a lot of students to get an education, which is their goal, and not a bad thing, and opens up a lot of doors. Yes some merit scholarships (NMSQT) are purely test/grades based and may be exclusionary but even scholarships that emphasize leadership and service also have a large academic consideration. My point is that tests can be a way out for low-income families and shouldn’t be ignored.
“there are plenty of people who would rather see their kids engaged in meaningful exploration than prepping for tests.”
The test prep industry is probably not a good thing, but prepping for tests is not inherently a bad thing, if it means you improve your reading comprehension, vocabulary and problem solving skills, all of which are essential in college.
However, some test-specific preparation may improve skills that have very little applicability beyond taking the test, so one could argue that such test preparation is overall a waste, even though each individual student needs to do it to stay competitive with all of the other students doing it (or reach a merit scholarship threshold).
@ChangeTheGame Excuse me if I missed this in any of your posts, but from your recent posts on this thread, I see a glaring issue: a failure to recognize that you were blessed with two very bright children. You and your wife obviously nurtured their natural intellect and curiosity and prioritized education and learning in your home, but let’s not pretend that they didn’t start out with certain gifts, which put them well above average to begin with. What they’ve accomplished is not achievable for every student, period. That has nothing to do with race or AA. AA was not designed for your children or mine, as they don’t need it. So I don’t think they — outliers — should be held up as examples of why AA should be dismantled.
The achievement gap is real, but let’s not pretend that all students can score a 5 on an AP exam and let’s focus on the real underlying issues. Are the black students and Asian students you are comparing who took the AP physics 1 exam starting from the same quality schools and preparation? Absolutely not.
Here’s where I have a problem: I value education for everyone. That is, I think that each person should have the opportunity to learn and to maximize their individual potential.
If affordability of “a” college education is tied to the ability to achieve a certain score on standardized tests – then that means that all sorts of students with an array of talents and potential will be shut out because they aren’t able to achieve whatever cutoff is needed for the scholarship.
I’m not particularly worried about private colleges or college ranking in this context. That is, I’m not suggesting that every student should be entitled to Harvard. But I do think there should be an affordable path. Since I am in California, I am used to seeing all sorts of kids go the community college to CSU route – and that’s fine, opens a lot of doors— but your comment points out that is a problem in other states. And in my view that simply is a bad thing, and one that obviously has the tendency to harm people at the lower end of the economic spectrum the most.
So I guess what I am saying is that for me, to “value education” means to be concerned about society as a whole, not simply to worry about me and mine. And to be concerned about all of those students who don’t have a chance at getting those merit worthy test scores, which really are attainable only by a very small fraction of college bound students. I’m looking at big-picture “education” – at the college level, the vast majority of students are NOT attending elite-level colleges. Just as an example – I was dismayed to see in the news that the governor of Alaska slashed the state University budget. (https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-alaska-university-financial-brink-20190706-story.html - “vetoed $130 million allotted for the University of Alaska system, a nearly 41% decline in state funding” ) ---- I don’t live in Alaska, I don’t know anyone in Alaska, I only visited Alaska once and I didn’t visit any college campuses there – but it still upsets me tremendously to read about that and think of all the students in Alaska who will be hurt by that – including many students who are Native American.
@itsgettingreal17 Let’s go through the points that I agree with and those that I don’t. I do have 2 smart children. I am against my kids getting an AA boost just because they are black because they have 2 educated parents, a comfortable middle class life style, and basically no struggles when there are Asian American, 1st gen , low SES students who are getting a much smaller boost. AA should be dismantled because it is wrong as it penalizes a group (Asian Americans) who have worked hard to achieve while it pits us against one another.
I have never said that all students can get a 5 on the AP exam, but when their is a 14:1 ratio between 2 races, that is not progress. Even in the subject that African American students have done the best in (AP Psychology) there is still a 3.5 to 1 ratio of Asian American students with a 5 to African American students with a 5. I have not asked for all students to have a 5, I am asking for African Americans to achieve at the same levels as ORM students were that ratio is 1 to 1 because they have shown it is possible. Even at very good high schools, I am seeing an achievement gap (lower percentages of African Americans in gifted, honors, AP, and IB programs) and that is disturbing for me to see .
I grew up going to school in one of the worst school districts in my home state (almost 90% of the schools in my county are rated as a 4 out of 10 or less on GreatSchools website) so I understand the challenges that face African American students in less than optimum conditions. I also saw 1st hand how AA helped no one in my neighborhood because it does not remotely care about poor black students from broken families that go to underfunded schools (you would need to go to a magnet/boarding school to have a shot). AA is a system that helps many more middle and upper class minority students at the highest levels (Harvard’s own lawsuit data points that out) and I would prefer a system of helping low SES students of all races in college admissions.
I have detailed on this thread many ways that I believe would be effective in lowering the achievement gaps that persist in our schools and in our homes in the African American community, but it will be impossible without black people as a group taking ownership of our issues (families, cultural attitudes toward education, and putting in work). We have a tendency to blame our schools and our teachers, but I don’t see anyone talking about the kids who disrespect teachers or disrupted classes, or the households who struggle to keep their kids in check. When do we as black people stop blaming everyone and everything that is not ourselves for our problems (even if it is absolutely true) and decide to do something about it?
@ChangeTheGame A few comments. One, your children aren’t benefitting from AA. And AA isn’t all about helping low income minority students. Second, please don’t buy into that stereotype that AA students as a whole aren’t achieving because of disrespectful or disruptive students. Those students are a small minority and not the root of the problem. They aren’t even a significant part of the problem. The problem is deep-rooted, complex and not easily fixed. I don’t disagree with you that the AA community has some changes to make, but let’s not pretend like it won’t take systemic external changes including improving schools and addressing existing causes of underachievement. Stereotyping Asians as a model to be replicated doesn’t help either. Most Asian students aren’t high achieving either. The AP chart doesn’t capture a lot of important information. We need to focus on getting to work at fixing the issues and not on stereotypes.
In the 18-64 age group, 51% of native-born Asians have a bachelor’s or higher, compared to only 35% of native-born whites. If you include immigrants, a stunning 70% of the 25-34 Asian population, has a bachelor’s or higher, compared to 45% of the non-Hispanic white population. This is further impressive for Asians who grew up in a home, where the primary language was not English. That looks like high achievement to me.
That is the result of the Asian American population being heavy with recent immigrants who are heavily selected as skilled workers and PhD students. Of course many have bachelor’s or higher degrees, and their American kids tend to be advantages by having highly educated parents.
@itsgettingreal17 It is okay that we have some differences in opinion which are mainly from our probable different experiences within the black community. I don’t have to buy the stereotype of disrespectful and disruptive kids because I actually saw it 1st hand as a student and have heard about it often enough within my wife’s own classrooms and the classrooms of her peers. AA did not help my daughter (she chose a HBCU) but if my son chose a highly selective school (<15%), he would be helped by the fact that he is a Black male. Do you doubt that?
Asian Americans as a group are the model because the data shows vast levels of academic achievement across many measures (including higher levels of educational achievement among their low SES students) and I want that for African Americans students. What you call stereotypes can be observed by reviewing data. I have also seen that up close as my wife has spent 10 years working at Title I schools and I saw it 1st hand in high school.
You are right that AA is not about helping all low SES African American students and I think that it helps very few of those students. We talked about Abraham Jack’s work discussing the “Privileged Poor” and those are students who are helped by AA. But those students could also be helped by a low SES boost without race being taken into account. But a larger portion of AA helps middle and upper class students. I have detailed my own personal beliefs (it is much harder to be poor than it is to be Black) and a low SES boost is a better fix and does not divide us as a society.
You’ve missed the “woe is me I’m full pay and those lucky poor kids are getting a free ride” comments that come in every single thread about need-based aid, I’m guessing.
The way people look at race first over other characteristics, and tend to have implicit biases regarding race, it is not surprising that Asian Americans who achieve highly in academics are not seen as examples or role models to follow, but as targets of resentment, suspects of cheating, kids living miserable lives under overbearing tiger parents, and/or examples of unattainable (by others) achievement (all sentiments that have been expressed or implied on these forums). Of course, that is all the result of immigration selection for highly educated immigrants, rather than any inherent racial or cultural superiority that often seems to be the implied basis of how people view Asian American academic achievement.
Maybe one should wish AA achievement was more on par with Nigerian (or Caribbean) recent immigrant achievement rather than Asian. Same idea, really - recent immigrants do better than descendants of US slaves. Better than descendants of the slave owners too, often.
Hard to make a “nature” argument there, in the nature/nurture debate.