"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

@OHMomof2 - The “prescience” in the exchange was Justice Fleming’s 1969 observation and prediction that lowering admissions standards for black students would likely (1) confirm stereotypes rather than weaken them, as the intellectual differences between the preference admits and the “regular” admits become obvious to the students, and (2) cause the black students to seek affirmation in other ways harmful to the academy, including through protest and agitation “primarily motivated by the psychological needs of the members of the group to overcome feelings of inferiority caused by lack of success in their studies.”

Here is a later account of a different alumnus’ recollection of Yale Law School in the mid-90s that largely confirms what Fleming was anticipating: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-scandal-of-diversity/ Well worth reading in its entirety for anyone who wants to really think about what race preferences are actually doing. The author of that piece also provides some helpful statistics from the early 2000s that show the magnitude of the preferences that have been employed at Yale and other elite law schools:

“Of the almost 91,000 applicants wishing to begin their studies at accredited law schools in the fall of 2002, approximately 4,500 had undergraduate grade-point averages of at least 3.5 and LSAT scores of at least 165…, 81 percent identified themselves as white; 10 percent as Asian or Pacific Islander; 0.65 percent as black. That is, there were only 29 self-identified blacks in the whole national applicant pool with numbers that, for a typical white candidate, would gain admission into a top-ten law school… If the pool is further restricted to applicants with LSAT scores of at least 170 and grade-point averages of at least 3.75—the category into which fall over 50 percent of students admitted into Yale Law School—the numbers are even more lopsided: 636 whites, 83 Asians, and precisely one black.”

@SatchelSF - from the POV of Yale Law School, their admissions policies are working perfectly. Yale is currently ranked the #1 law school in the country. So they’re doing something right, despite the dire warning in 1969.

But going beyond the obvious success of Yale’s admissions policies, Macklin wrote this letter in 1969. A year that many black people still couldn’t go to “white schools” at any level of their education. But he seems to expect that black students have the same LSATs, GPAs, masters degrees and everything that white applicants - again in 1969! - do. He doesn’t account in any way for the superior intellect and dedication that it would take a black student to get near those “standards”.

I wonder if standards might have been “eased” for Macklin himself, the son of a governor? We still have legacy and development considerations in admission and it hasn’t negatively affected Yale Law yet.

I feel like we are talking past each other a bit, @OHMomof2. Almost as if you and I are reading different articles and letters!

While there may have been obstacles to black achievement in 1969, the Kay piece I linked to and quoted showed 2002 statistics for black students that, frankly, were worse than those implied by Macklin in 1969 - and clearly his close relationship with the school means he had the actual data. Keep in mind that by 2002 we had had affirmative action at the elite secondary and college level for 40 years, and that some of these black students were second- and even third-generation recipients of affirmative action; many had access to the very best secondary and college educations available. To recap, in 2002 there was only one black law student in the entire country who could post grades and scores even close to the median at Yale Law School (and that would go for Stanford, as well), and of course Yale will have admitted more than 15 black students. There were only 29 black students in the entire country who had credentials near where typical credentials would be for the “top ten” law schools, although collectively those same law schools will have enrolled literally hundreds of black students. Given that background, it is inevitable that the black students will find themselves disproportionately at the very bottom of their classes.

The point of the Macklin letter, and of the Kay piece, is that the difference in intellectual abilities between the preference admits and the “regular” admits is too obvious to hide. Kay (in 2003) puts it well:

“As my experience at Yale showed, it is impossible to construct an academic environment in which every type of meritocratic ranking or competition is eliminated. Eventually, the wheat and the chaff get separated. When blacks find themselves disproportionately represented in the chaff, ‘institutional racism’ and other supposedly explanatory theories follow, and interracial relations suffer.”

As anticipated by Macklin in 1969, and confirmed by Kay 30 years later, letting in students who are of lesser academic and intellectual ability – and doing it by race – is likely to confirm stereotypes, rather than break them down. Note that this becomes a problem at all levels of law schools. If the true elites (really, just Yale and Stanford) collectively enroll 30 or so black students, only one of which was likely to have been academically qualified, the next level “down” (Harvard, Columbia, Penn, U. Chicago, etc.) must reach even deeper into the talent pool. And so on. At any given level, students are likely to encounter a group of black students who – on average – are very significantly below the average of the school on academic and intellectual measures, reinforcing harmful stereotypes.

This is especially harmful to those black students who are intellectually and academically the equal of anyone at their school and who would have been admitted under “regular” admissions criteria. By employing a race-based preference system – which of necessity must use extreme measures to approach anywhere near 10% representation for black students at the top ten law schools – the schools are codifying a system in which race carries tremendous information. This is the point of some recent research that is also illuminating; see here (unfortunately behind a pay wall): https://www.wsj.com/articles/hard-truths-about-race-on-campus-1462544543. People will assume that black students are there “only because of their race,” not without some justification in light of the statistics.

It’s nice to imagine that we can sweep all this under the rug and pretend that all students are “qualified.” Nevertheless, reality is a stubborn thing. When you are talking about Yale or Stanford law students, the average intelligence is going to be well upwards of 2 and 1/2 standard deviations above the mean. Notwithstanding anything the students might say for public consumption, the intellectual differences are going to be noticed and noticed quickly, which again is the point of the Macklin letter and of the Kay piece more than 30 years later.

As for legacy and other preferences, I am 100% with you, @OHMomof2. I don’t like them. I’d go so far as to say that the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action at elite colleges and law schools are likely to be white, privileged and/or connected students. This naturally follows because in order to strive for some sort of consistency among preference groups, admissions needs to deemphasize intellectual ability and academic promise. It becomes then much “easier” for admissions offices to admit whom they want when objective criteria are deemphasized. Privileged white students (legacy, development) are likely to benefit just as much as the lesser qualified minorities admitted under the race preferences, if not more.

I’m ignoring your racially based IQ stuff because it’s not relevant to this forum. I’m keeping it to college (and obviously professional school) admissions and affirmative action.

As I see it, what would be “prescient” about that letter would be if:

  1. The reputation of Yale Law suffered since then in the manner that was so clear to Macklin that he characterized the harm to the institution as "obvious";

and

  1. Non-white graduates of Yale Law were disadvantaged by affirmative action there. Like having an above average dropout rate or an inability to get jobs in law after graduation. Like, you know, SC justices Thomas (who despite having arguably the most important job in the US feels that Yale's AA hurt him) and Sotomayor ;)

We KNOW that #1 hasn’t happened. #2 would be interesting to see statistics on if they exist.

…and FWIW I bet Macklin would also be deeply disturbed to know that more than half the class is now women and a full 48% people of color. And he might wonder how it could be that “despite” this, it’s the #1 law school in the country.

@OHMomof2 I dont see what IQ stuff you are talking about? Further, school rankings are now largely based on very subjective criteria and the most prestigious colleges, and prep schools for that matter, have been riding on their storied histories for a long time. They cant be overtaken: their head start in the prestige competition are too great. Sure HYP trade places every once in a while but thats about it.

If we take this back to college admissions from top prep schools and tease through the data (which I have done) and pick out the URMs, the athletes, legacies and so forth that are getting into Ivies with lesser qualifications than others–often SIGNIFICANTLY so— that hasn’t changed the schools’ reputations has it? You would be shocked at the number of very unimpressive schools many of the kids attend out of PEA.

I’m interested to see the data you teased through.

But that’s right, it hasn’t harmed their reputations, arguably it has made them even more desirable. So from the POV of the colleges, it’s working out very well. So why would they change it?

@OHMomof2 - With regard to rankings, remember they are relative rankings. As each of the elites is admitting students with lesser qualifications based on preference programs - and typically at the same rough percentages - one wouldn’t expect any massive re-jiggering of relative rankings.

About IQ, in the above posts I have really only been talking about GPA and LSAT scores. It’s interesting that you equated that discussion with IQ.

@SatchelSF whatever criticisms there are of rankings, and there are many, they’re clearly important to the schools and to many applicants. If you prefer selectivity as a measure, Yale is on top there too with an acceptance rate of 9.7% (lowest in the US).

I suppose I referred to the dozen or two posts about IQ that preceded this past couple of days. You’re putting a lot out there about inferior LSATs and GPA, but ignoring any other aspect of academic readiness, and I haven’t seen any data about negative consequences of AA for the students (in terms of post-grad jobs or grad rate or anything else) or the school (which, again, remains the most desired) .

@OHMomof2 - Oh no, no complaint that Yale is the “best” - I would agree with you there. I believe it has been ranked #1 for the last 30+ years. From your numbers, selectivity today looks to be a fair bit lower than it used to be 20 or 30 years ago (when it was 6-7%), but I believe that is the case with all law schools, as the profession has become less attractive and other options (tech, finance) have become increasingly more appealing on a relative basis.

Again, though, any ranking on whatever measures one chooses is always a relative rankings. Yale is probably not the place it could be if all admissions were done on the basis of academic promise. But that is equally true of every other elite law school.

With regard to academic preparedness, look, we are talking about 23-28 year olds for the most part. They have already had 8 yeas of post-elementary education, some at literally the finest schools the world has ever known. A place like Yale will turn down the large majority of applicants from even HYP. Are we really making excuses for a lack of academic preparedness at this stage?

I thought YOU were making that case? Yale is accepting academically inferior non-white students, is what you were saying, no?

A bit off topic and I have been off of this thread for a while, but just thought I would share that there was a girl from our high school that is European White but First Gen and she got into U Penn with lower scores/grades than many other whites from the same school…appears as though the first gen really helped her which is good to know. I’m making this point because someone mentioned European First Gens a few pages ago. She is a great girl and very hard working, as are her parents. We are all very happy for her. I’m sure she got in for lots of other good reasons but still seems like the first gen helped…we will of course never know for sure.

“…and FWIW I bet Macklin would also be deeply disturbed to know that more than half the class is now women and a full 48% people of color. And he might wonder how it could be that “despite” this, it’s the #1 law school in the country.”

Yale’s largest people of color group is Asian (15%) included in that 48% which would probably be ok with Macklin.

Dean Pollack makes a very good case in his letter, in the series posted by @SatchelSF - it begins around page 7. https://www.nationalaffairs.com/storage/app/uploads/public/58e/1a4/ae3/58e1a4ae36717528770103.pdf

He basically says Yale Law NEVER admitted solely on the basis of LSAT/GPA and the reason is that they feel those two metrics often miss good future lawyers (white ones too). And then he goes on to say that indeed, their “not top stat” black admits have gone on to very successful careers in law. So the outcomes are what Yale hoped, the experiment succeeded.

As to why Yale chose to do this, he also explains:

[quote] it seems particularly clear that the country needs far more--and especially far more well-trained--black lawyers, bearing in mind that today only 2 or 3 per cent of the American bar is black.

if Yale Law School can play a larger role than it has before in meeting this important national need, it ought to try to do so.

[/quote]

But he also makes it clear that societal good this will be done only in the context of admitting students who Yale believes will succeed. And he is satisfied that they are.

“So the outcomes are what Yale hoped, the experiment succeeded.”

Well you can’t really run an experiment and claim yourself that it succeeded. You’d need some neutral third party to validate the conclusion. You’d need to find out what happened to the white and Asian lawyers that were rejected by Yale because of their race. Yale has a small class of 200 so if you’re going to get more black lawyers, you need the other schools to also try and help out, the ones that can use race to help determine its class.

@theloniusmonk ^:)^

@SatchelSF It is clear that the hostility to data is politically motivated. No one likes data that doesn’t support their preferred agenda. Yet some data is irrefutable I think there is hard proof that racial preferences have failed: there are no more black admittees than the minimum target goal/number. To the best of my knowledge, it has not changed (increased) in 40 years. There has been no geometric effect or critical mass achieved. In order to achieve the target minimum number of enrolled black students, the schools still need to have a lower bar of stats for that pool. Proof racial preferences have not worked.

I wouldn’t, to succeed from Yale’s perspective. Yale’s ranked #1, their graduates of all races are highly sought after.

From Yale’s perspective it’s going great.

Well ok that’s correlation, not really a causation. I ran across this article on best law schools blacks schools should attend (from the book with same name) and interestingly Yale is 19th - because it has a lower percentage of blacks than its peers, and more importantly its black graduates do not go into diverse fields, basically only academia. So Yale and Stanford were dinged for that. Now the writer says that no black person will pick Howard (#2) over Yale if they get into both, and wanted to figure out why Yale was ranked low.

https://abovethelaw.com/2012/10/the-best-law-school-for-black-people-is-not-yale/

I think the best line of the article is this:

“I’d like to live in a world where the list of best law schools “for black people” was exactly the same as the list of best law schools “for people.” I think we’re close. Black people are already conditioned to make the same stupid decisions based on the U.S. News rankings as white people have been making for a generation.”

So Yale doesn’t accept as many blacks percentage wide as its peers and guides them if you will to lower paying jobs. Yeah that’s working great for Yale, not so good for its black graduates (at least compared to Harvard, Columbia, Georgetown, Northwestern et al).

And as I said despite going to YHS Law school and the other top schools the largely progressive law firms are almost entirely absent of URM partners showing the prediction to be accurate. Center is correct that many on this thread substitute ideology for proven facts and science.

Well except those Supreme Court justices I guess. Then again, Howard has at least one of those, and Harvard Law has a president…

The entire top 25 list you linked has some kind of affirmative action, except maybe UT.

How do you interpret THAT?