I love this quote of Thomas Sowell, from his *A Personal Odyssey/i:
Too bad for Sowell that (modern) AA began with an executive order in 1961. (I say “modern” because the term has been in use since at least the 1930s, paired with its particular racial emphasis in 1941.)
Maybe Sowell meant the NEXT executive order regarding AA, or some other event that helps him make his anecdotal point.
You’re probably right, @OHMomof2. No doubt you have a better understanding of what Sowell personally experienced and meant to say than even he himself had.
The 1980s SAT did not use any math more advanced than algebra 2 and geometry as commonly taught in US high schools. It was not that hard for strong math students to earn 800 or upper 700s scores on it.
Back then, it was the verbal section that escalated difficulty by using increasingly obscure vocabulary words for the “more difficult” questions. It was mostly a test of English vocabulary, with a small number of reading comprehension questions thrown in. Not surprisingly, there were SAT prep books that had lists of purported “SAT words” for those prepping for the SAT to learn.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
As I said upthread, this is not a debate site. State your position, defend once, if necessary, but then move on. Conversations between 2 or 3 people should be limited to PM’s. Additionally, nowhere in the original discussion is there mention of IQ, so those were among the 15 posts deleted.
Came to see a discussion on race in college admissions. Did not find one
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
I have to agree, particularly in light of my earlier note. I am closing this thread temporarily to clean up. As this will require some time, I have no ETA on when it will be reopened.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
After doing some cleaning, I have reopened the thread. I 'm not going back through 106 pages, but I am going to quote the first post, which should be used as a guiding principle going forward (emphasis mine):
Thank you for your understanding.
Ok, I have posted in other threads about the issue of race in college admissions. I feel that this ORM Lawsuit against Harvard will ultimately affect Native American URMs. I feel that, on the whole, in the last two decades, NAs have been better prepared for college by having family members go to college and their stats have improved over the years. Top tier schools have done an amazing job in recruiting URMs that will be successful in such environments. However, there is still a lack in early opportunities to prepare for college.
I am glad that many Unis have carved out spaces for NA URMs given the traumatic historical issues between the dominant culture and NAs. I feel that if the files do get opened up, the NA numbers and admits will be the ‘whipping tool’ that the Asians will use against Harvard and NAs will lose out again to a numbers game.
At contact, there were millions upon millions of NAs. However with the “smallpox blanket” agenda and other euro diseases where we had no immunity, scores of NAs were wiped out. With hardly any time to re-populate, more Europeans came and we were outnumbered. Again, now the Asians are here and they bring their demands and again, we are ‘outnumbered’ in all kinds of ways.
After the smallpox epidemic, ‘reservations’ were created more because they thought we would die off, not live! NAs were spread out and they thought to put as all together and then wipe us out! Never thought we would ever come back to fight!
It is my hope that Harvard and other unis, in order to protect themselves, will have to protect us this ‘go round’. I am sure at many colleges, the NA URM Societies are aware of the potential assault on their 'historically earned rights" to have a 'URM Space" created for them.
So, if the SAT/GPA/ACT “blankets” are used by the Asians and Euros, it will be another genocide against us. and will kill our URM spaces in these colleges. Granted there are some incredibly smart NAs and they will be competitive, but that is not the norm by a long shot. It is the norm in Asian Communities though. Go through the stats of NAs vs Asians and it’s telling.
Caucasians and other dominant cultures are competitive and have ‘learning systems’ in place to help guarantee the successful completion of college for their off-spring. We had the Indian Residential School/Boarding Schools that were devastating to them. The last US Indian Boarding School closed down in the mid 70’s which isn’t so long ago; in Canada, 1996. It is my hope that we will survive this next go round and the Universities will protect what is written in many of their own charters: which is to provide spaces for NAs as a way of making reparations for the past. Take a look at the smallpox practices in New England. There was a reason many places were left barren of NA during Colonial times. NAs “paid” historically for a URM place in these schools. Massachusetts even has a tuition waiver for NAs and American Indians (includes North American Indians) as part of an initiative of reconciliation with NAs and the European Settlers.
Asians want to come in a blast that to bits because they feel ‘academically entitled’ to Harvard and other elite schools. If you look at the make up of each class, there is an over-representation of Asians (US Asian Pop= 5-7%) and in the Harvard 2021 Class=21% approx. Dartmouth is doing a great job in creating places for NAs.
Harvard has private and public money for their school. Many New England families have paid taxes for years into their public schooling system. It would be interesting to know and “open the books” to see how much of that support is form the Asian community over the years. I think this whole thing has a downward trend. Many of the endowments to the University are over three hundred years old! The compound interest is astounding! I think that they reserve the right to craft the diversity of their class as they see fit.
My 4 cents.
We don’t feel academically entitled, but we do want a fair shake, the same measuring stick used for everybody else.
I’d be curious about the stats for Native Americans in college and professional school admissions. My sense is that Native Americans get nowhere near the “boost” that African American students get. It’s just a gut feel, but I suspect that under standard “holistic” evaluation criteria, Native Americans should be able to maintain their admittedly small representation in selective schools. Links to sources or research would be appreciated.
No one who seriously looks at this question of racial preferences thinks that GPA + test scores should be the only things that matter for admissions purposes. What people object to - rightly in my opinion - is the use of explicitly different holistic criteria for different racial groups. If we are going to have that (and in fact we do), it would be more honest and less damaging to the institution of education to adopt racial quotas, with explicitly different criteria.
These data are old, but suggest that Native Americans did not get a large boost in law school admissions as regards test scores, but perhaps a bit of a boost in GPA measures (see Table 10, p.44): http://www.nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview-72-1-Wightman.pdf
The latest data I’ve seen regarding law school admissions and performance do not break out Native American separately, but confirm that the boost received by African Americans is enormous, despite the extremely poor performance of the preference admits (overwhelmingly in the bottom 20% of the class by grades actually received). (See, e.g., https://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/research-(lsac-resources)/tr-12-02.pdf, and https://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/research-(lsac-resources)/tr-17-01.pdf.)
I would think that African Americans have much more to be worried about regarding what comes out of the Harvard litigation than Native Americans. By the way, Asian Americans perform about average in law school, and receive no preference for or against in admissions from what I can tell, so the Harvard litigation seems more relevant for college and perhaps medical school admissions.
Identity politics, stereotyping of Asians, and false ideas of entitlement.
What a great post- LOL
- This idea of reparations, and the idea that white people are "indebted" to pay back the crimes of their ancestors is an inherent fallacy. By the same logic, the US government still should be demanding payment from the British government for lost economy during the colonial era. This victim mentality only hurts those who try to use it to their own advantage, as it paints a very unsavory picture for such people as being "lazy" and "not willing to work to overcome hardship", even though it might not necessarily be so.
Be honest: have you ever seen any Japanese person complain about internment camps, or the stigmatization they received in the 1900’s? Of course not. Such things are in the past, and need to be left there. Bringing up old wounds like the NA Boarding Schools and Smallpox epidemic only worsens existing tensions, and incites more racial fearmongering.
- As @SatchelSF mentioned before, overrepresentation in all fields, is a very natural and commonplace thing. Take for example college football. The vast majority of players are black. Sure, there might be some self-selection bias or cultural/social reason behind it, but biologically, African people tend to have longer arms then other ethnicities. Therefore, it makes sense that a lot of sports that rely on long arms, such as football and basketball would be dominated by African-Americans. Should we artificially induce diversity here by inserting more Asians and Hispanics?
- Inferring that Asian people give back and contribute to colleges less, and therefore aren't deserving of going to top colleges like Harvard or Dartmouth is blatantly racist. Just because Asians haven't been in America as long as other ethnicities, doesn't mean that they don't deserve the opportunity America gives. Look at Silicon Valley- without the thousands of Asian immigrants coming in and filling CS jobs, I guarantee that the technology wouldn't be as far as it is today. I truly believe every ethnicity, regardless of time spent or heritage in America, can contribute something valuable to our country.
Thus your stereotype that Asians “don’t give back” and aren’t contributing to “college endowments” is frankly ridiculous, as the amount of money given back to your alma mater in no way, shape, or form, affects your worth in this country
@GreenPoison, the last residential school closed in the mid 1970s, not so long ago! If you are in your mid 4O’s these are you and your ancestors who are beneficiaries of the acts of these genocides. In Canada, it’s 31 years since the last residential school closure. Not so long ago I am sorry to tell you. The educational genocide that happened is still affecting their kids, myself included. I have seen whipping marks on the back of my mother’s legs from the 'dominant society’s treatment of her and on my father’s tongue are the needle marks he got for speaking his own language in class! Or that my uncles had to bury a baby in the back of the school only to find out that it was a baby their sister had (Their own niece!) from being molested by the priests! I had to sit and listen to my dying uncle’s guilt over that and try to ease his pain!
You cannot tell me this isn’t still a viable argument here. For many of these schools, the Native American was the first URM or specialty admissions cases given. It is a long held practice for these schools. It is an agreement between those peoples, their families and ancestry who were affected. Japan still has their land, their language, their culture and a national leader who is Japanese, not the same thing here, so don’t compare the two. I think the Asians are racist to say that because more of them apply, have certain stats that they deserve more seats!
- Inferring that Asian people give back and contribute to colleges less, and therefore aren't deserving of going to top colleges like Harvard or Dartmouth is blatantly racist. Just because Asians haven't been in America as long as other ethnicities, doesn't mean that they don't deserve the opportunity America gives.
In regards to the contributions and endowments factors, my point is, is that Harvard has been built over centuries to be the success it is today, yet because of these Asian SATs/ACT numbers, they feel they should have more of the pie and I feel that Harvard has earned the right to determine what their class should look like year to year. This is a discussion about Race in College, so I am not shying away from calling them as I see them and will not back down from writing my response to the situation at hand today.
These Asians, want to open the files to"fling lower stats admits" in the teeth of Harvard, to induce them change how they develop their yearly class. I say that they will use NA admits stats as an, “I told you so!” and we will suffer for it. You cannot say that this is not a possibility.
I am not saying Asians are not deserving of going to elite colleges, I am saying the distribution of them should be managed by the colleges, and not have a people group use their strengths to bash their adopted country’s college policies. I mean, let’s see if we can reverse the situation in say, China, Korea, Singapore, India or Persia. Would they tolerate Americans who have emigrated there a few generations ago, telling them their policies are wrong?
I don’t think so.
The Harvard lawsuit is about how these students feel that they are ‘worthy and have been wronged" somehow by the admissions policies of elite schools. They are asking for a lot. They are wanting to open up files on applicants to universities, many of whom, didn’t sign up for that when they applied, anonymous or not! By their actions they are implying that "there are those who are not worthy’ which is offensive and wrong.
@SatchelSF What I am worried about is that our "anonymous stats’ could be used as the ‘slam dunk’ or the evidence to ‘summarily’ rule on this case. Native Americans or any URMs applicants or admits wouldn’t want to be used as a ‘tool’ to prove their case because I don’t think it will stop there. More bad things can happen to NAs if you give a growing people group power: we know it.
I am wondering how long do you think AA should continue? Let’s assume it’s justified and fair. But how long?
The basic problem with AA is that it creates a visible stratification of ability by skin color. In college this is perhaps less apparent, because the less able students segregate into the “softer” subjects (sociology, ethnic studies, political science, etc.). But at the high school and professional school levels, where curricula are more uniform, this ability gap is a chasm that cannot be spanned even by the most well-intentioned.
There are consequences for education generally. Because of the disparities in ability, there is constant pressure to weaken standards and to seek explanations for the disparities in paradigms of “oppression” that are dangerous to society. In addition, speech and academic freedom become increasingly proscribed. At simply a practical level, AA seems more likely to reinforce stereotypes, rather than weaken them, and would therefore seem to be questionable.
I believe AA has long outlived its usefulness. Thinking abstractly, though, I can see the political value in a quota system. It’s not ideal, of course, but it would avoid at least some of the cognitive dissonance that surrounds these discussions, in which one side insists that preference students are “just as qualified” while the other observes that this is just not the case.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-harvard-discrimination/ indicates that main force behind the lawsuit is activist Edward Blum. He was also behind the Fisher v. University of Texas lawsuit.
^Whoever is behind the lawsuit, we should thank him (or her). Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
We rightly do not tolerate discrimination on the basis of race in restaurants, private businesses, housing, etc. and historically the Justice Department has been at the forefront in trying to prevent it. It’s about time the Justice Department takes up the “alleged” discrimination going on in private colleges. Again, we should be thankful for this lawsuit.
I always wonder when topics like this come up why is it such a big focus on black students. Black students are such a small % of students in these school most in the single digits. Even with removing race black students will still be in the single digits if the UC systems is any example. I just don’t get it. How many spots are black students really taking from anyone? At this point holistic review might help white students more than black students. Again if we use the UC system as an example.
I just don’t get it.
The Reuters article linked above simply lays out the strategy for trying to discredit in advance what the lawsuit and Justice Department are going to find. Far from modest “plus” factors designed to reward and remedy true inequities of opportunity, I believe we are going to find exactly what has been found every time the question of preferences has been substantively explored: enormous preferences that truly shock the conscience, and which are based upon nothing but skin color.
The whole SAT/ACT/GPA “stats” argument is a red herring. Nothing will - or should - stop Harvard or any other school from granting appropriate preferences based on all sorts of attributes it deems important - leadership, achievement in the face of significant hardship, first generation, legacy, development, lack of access to quality schools, etc. In other words, truly “holistic” criteria are not being threatened.
But in my opinion colleges are not being straight here. Entirely different sets of holistic criteria are being used, and the choice of which set to use is impermissibly and illegally being conditioned upon skin color. Expect the defenders of the status quo to ramp up their ad hominem attacks, but we should recognize that the issue is not whether one group is “taking away” spots from another (a childish concern not really worthy of reasoned debate in the public sphere), but rather whether we should tolerate race discrimination in society, and if so, why in this important area but not in others?
If I am wrong, and holistic criteria are being applied without regard to race, then the lawsuit will show this and people should not be worried.
Affirmative Action… It is almost like a bad word at this point. Speaking as an African American man, the loss of race based “holistic” criteria does not scare most African Americans because a large swath of our kids don’t even attempt to go to elite private and state schools (In Georgia, 1/3 of our high school graduates are African American but we normally have between 7-8 percent go to our main flagship school UGA). I do believe that race based policies are wrong, and although I understand the initial intent, (to help African Americans overcome a systematic wrong done over centuries) there could be no end in sight to race based policies. Socioeconomic factors should carry more of the burden that race now holds in admissions decisions. People do realize that race based “holistic policies” at elite institutions hurt Asian Americans (quotas/ceiling on the number admitted) , but there are not as many African Americans helped as there are whites helped (But I tend to see more young Caucasian students upset by what they see as racism through AA more than any other group). The numbers at the elite UC campuses (40%+ of the students are of Asian) would probably be the numbers we would see at the US’s most elite university’s. In today’s world, an 1st generation Asian American with a 3.9 with a 1250 SAT who had overcome poverty, a terrible school district, had given back to his/her community and had come from a single parent household would have little to no shot at Harvard. If I saw kids like that getting into elite schools as well, I would have no problem with holistic admissions at these universities, but we just don’t see it. Perseverance and the ability to overcome obstacles should be respected, no matter the race.