If you deny that Asians are being discriminated against on the basis of race, then I have no choice on how I can characterize you. Your motives aside
I don’t deny that Asians face discrimination because of race. I don’t think the evidence indicates that they are being legally discriminated against in by Harvard Admissions.
So because, after carefully considering the facts and law, I dare agree with this Court’s careful analysis, you feel justified in labeling me a racist. Regardless of my motive.
Here is a statement by an Asian American student who testified at the trial:
Ahead of the trial, Sally Chen ’19, co-director of the Task Force on Asian and Pacific American Studies and one of four undergraduates slated to testify, emphasized that it’s important to raise awareness about what’s at stake in the case.
“It’s important that we help people understand that the lawsuit isn’t about bias against Asian American students,” she said. “It’s about eliminating an important way colleges and universities across the country can help open the door to all students of color, including Asian Americans.”
Chen added that she thinks Harvard’s race-conscious policies helped her gain entry to the College because they allowed admissions officers to consider the role of race on her life experiences and achievements. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/10/harvard-supporters-set-to-testify-in-admissions-trial/
Is Ms. Chen a racist, too?
By the way, have you read the Court’s opinion?
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I will hold Ms Chen and the honorable justice to the same standard. Indeed Ms Chen is also saying that race is a factor. She is not disagreeing with the premise.
I am speaking from my lived experience.
This need to constantly defend the rights of Asian kids is itself offensive.
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So the Asian students at Harvard who agree with the decision are racist. And the judge. And numerous other Asians and non-Asians who dare see it differently than you do.
So you haven’t even read the case. Yet you think everyone who disagrees with you about a case you haven’t read is a racist.
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Yes, but I think there’s an inherent challenge in determining how to take into account the “effects of historical discrimination” in anything other than an individualized assessment. For example, one effect of historical discrimination has been increased levels of poverty. But does that mean there should be an income based cutoff on affirmative action? If so how would a college determine that cutoff?
In the end perhaps this ends up being addressed by top schools asking applicants to write an essay describing how discrimination has affected them (just like the optional essays about how students have been affected by the pandemic). But I imagine that more privileged students will be able to write better essays (potentially about more limited or one-off instances of discrimination) than the students such an approach is designed to help who are facing ongoing hardships and can’t react to every single instance of discrimination.
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Seemingly when everyone claims something is their lived experience, no case reading is required of them. But when I claim that something is my lived experience, and it absolutely is, I have to come armed with having read some case. I think these demands are racist. People should become more racially sensitive
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What is your life experience with current admissions practices at Harvard that you believe justifies labeling me and so many others “racist?”
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That Asians are being discriminated against in academia and in places of work. They need to fight all kinds of stereotypes. It is pervasive. And others become blind to it and indeed take it for granted.
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I never denied this. I agree with it and have seen it myself. But I asked you specifically about Harvard Admissions. While I agree that Asians face pervasive discrimination in many ways, I don’t believe that Harvard Admissions policy is legally discriminatory or “racist.”
Yet you label Harvard, the judge, many of the students, many Asian activists, me, etc. all to be racist. Because they disagree with you about case you haven’t even bothered to read.
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In both cases, arguments were made and questions asked by the justices about how the admissions offices would take information like this into consideration. Both sides seemed to agree that the AO could consider race when used in essays to show how they felt race had played a part in an experience or if the student felt discrimination because of race. I don’t think anyone argued that the schools should require such an essay if the student didn’t want race considered, and a big part of the plaintiff’s argument is that they don’t want race to be a factor. The Asian students don’t want the school to pick the most worthy asians (or blacks) but the most worthy students regardless of race. Some don’t want to discuss discrimination at all
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If someone is looking at race at all in making admissions decisions, that is a racist admissions policy. It is not complicated. If current interpretation of the law is enabling this, the interpretation is racist. If the law is being correctly interpreted, the law is racist. I hope I am clear.
Who are “the Asian students” to whom you refer? There were no Harvard students, Asian or otherwise, who testified on behalf of the Plaintiffs in this lawsuit. A number testified on behalf of Harvard.
And who decides the standard for determining who is worthy? The Supreme Court?
As mud. Is it sexist for universities to take gender into account? If not, why not?
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I meant an optional essay, just like essays about Covid: if you felt you hadn’t been affected you didn’t write that essay. I’d be interested to know how many people applying in 2020-21 felt they had to write something about the effects of Covid on them, however minimal (my kid didn’t answer that section in his graduate scholarship applications, since the effects of Covid were almost entirely positive for his college opportunities).
An argument that you shouldn’t talk about discrimination at all in applications seems to be in conflict with the rest of the holistic process to select the most “worthy” applicants. But whether holistic assessments are a good idea or not is a different question entirely.
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It is indeed sexist. Why is it not sexist?
Because the intent is not to discriminate against female applicants (who significantly over-perform males in admissions pools at many schools) but rather to create balanced educational environment where various viewpoints are included and can foster.
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There is entirely too much social engineering
All good questions, and I think that this is a discussion that should happen. The problem is that there are people who want simple solutions, like “let’s just throw money at it, and then everything will be alright”.
On the other hand, there are people who believe that racism is over and that we should pretend that it’s gone, and, in some cases, that it never happened. It’s kinda like a thief telling somebody “I don’t have to give anything back, since I haven’t stolen from you since then, so it’s all in the past, and we can forget it”.
The problem with all the legislation against discrimination is that it entirely ignores the legacies that these policies and actions have. One action of discrimination will often carry over for generations. The fact that no new act of discrimination has happened recently does not mean that everybody is now the same. The law does not recognize this, and often makes it difficult to remedy of mitigate the damage that has been caused by discrimination.
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Call it what you like, but many students aren’t interested in attending universities with severe gender imbalances, and it hinders the college’s educational mission. The same can be said for schools with few or no URMs or all white kids. For example many Asian students who have absolutely no interest in attending college where there are few other Asian kids and where they may not feel welcome and respected, or where they feel like they will be discriminated against. It is the same for other groups.
As for your extraordinary insults toward me and others, generally intent and motive matter when labeling people racist. I am trying to stay calm and not to take it personally because the nature of your position exposes itself.
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No insult is intended. I am just using the same language that is commonly used when people deny racism in other contexts.
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Of course it was intended. Calling someone a racist is a horrible insult, and in this case speaks to your character, not mine
It is just that, based on your comments, I have such a low opinion of your opinion that there is no reason more me to get worked up about it.
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