<p>Just to interject a little humor and ease the tension a bit, I always thought Woody Allen said it best when he said "Socrates was a man, all men are mortal, so therefore all men are Socrates." I must have missed that one in my classical logic course in college.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, your allegations against Southwest Virginia were irrelevant in the first place. If Southwest Virginia is "underrepresented" at UVa, there is no need to single Sotuwest and Southern Virginia out as being a racist area. A racist Southwest Virginia would have little to no affect on the OP's life at UVa.</p>
<p>Also, your childhood 50 years ago may not apply to what is going on in Southwest Virginia now. It may have been a racist haven then, but race relations have changed dramatically throughout the US, including Southern Virginia. Visitng and talking to your family "often" cannot give you an encompassing picture of race relations in the whole region. </p>
<p>Your argument centers that you are an expert on Southwest Virginia and you think it is racist. No specific information, just your "expert" opinion. I have lived 18 years in Southwest Virginia and I am now a student at the University. My opinion, gained from living in that area is that Southwest Virginia is no more racist than the University. You might not beleive it, but such a statement is just as intellectually valid as your claim.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, your childhood 50 years ago may not apply to what is going on in Southwest Virginia now.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am 50+ years old. That doe not mean that my "childhood" was 50 years ago. Surely, UVA is not admitting people who can't subtract 22 9when I left) from 50? As for what is going on now, as I said, I visit often over a wide range of territory.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Your argument centers that you are an expert on Southwest Virginia and you think it is racist.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, my argument depends on my experience with south and southwest Virginia. I never claimed to be an expert, and I doubt that you are, either. If you have lived 18 years in SW Virginia, then you probably grew up there. I doubt you know much more than what you see and hear in a town or two, so the "expertise" you use to refute my experience is probably less broad than my own. And, you've said nothing of the Southside. What do you know about the Southside?</p>
<p>Having said all that, the refutation, up until now, has been from people who, as far as I can tell, have no experience with S and SW Virginia at all. They had no problem having opinions, though. I'm glad that, at least, there is someone actually from there who's commenting.</p>
<p>As for validity, none has been claimed here. Only experience. And since my experience, even as late as last June, includes a stint in SW Virginia in which I commonly heard the N-word being bandied about in several social situations, and since I cannot recall the last time I heard the N-word bandied about in the part of the country in which I now live, and since I've heard the N-word used liberally by white people in S and SW Virginia every time I have visited for anything more than a day, and since I rarely have heard that word, elsewhere, I think it's reasonable to say that "there is still a fairly high level of racism in southern and southwestern Virginia." Since I've seen it and heard it, I'd call what I've seen and heard "fairly high."</p>
<p>As for the argument that SW Virginia went from "a racist haven then" to a bastion of brotherly love now, I'll put a question to you: What parts of the findings of memetic research and theory, that appear to apply everywhere else (except in well-defined situations), don't apply to Southwest Virginia? And why?</p>
<p>I will not say anything about Southside, but I am fairly knoledgeable about southwestern Virginia. My comment on being an expert was sarcastic for clearly neither of us is a real expert, and are just saying our opinion.</p>
<p>I have rarely (very close to never) heard the N-word used. I hear it more (still not much at all) up here in Charlottesville. My expierence contradicts yours. Not to say that racism does not exist in Southwest Virginia, just that my expierence makes me think you exaggerate the problem. </p>
<p>And for your last point, you built a straw man just like you critizized with Globalist. I never claimed that Southwest Virginia is a "bastion of bortherly love", only that it has gotten better in the last 50 years, just like the rest of the country has.</p>
<p>For your memetic point, why would Southwest Virginia be left out of the change of memes that have made to nation as a whole less racist?</p>
<p>
[quote]
For your memetic point, why would Southwest Virginia be left out of the change of memes that have made to nation as a whole less racist?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It wouldn't be. But you are assuming a common cultural starting point. Is it your contention that Southwest Virginia has the same cultural starting point as, say, Palo Alto, California or Seattle, Washington? Be careful. Current data are unavailable (to the best of my knowledge), but there is an historic record.</p>
<p>As for the "brotherly love" comment, you are correct, and I apologize for that. That was wrong of me. But, then, so was your comment that I was presenting myself as an "expert." That is also a straw man. I shouldn't have responded in kind.</p>
<p>In any event, I've gone on record as telling the OP that s/he should probably not have a problem. But I stand by my original assertion that there is still a fairly high level of racism in SW and southern Virginia. What can I say? I see it every time I go back there, and there's just no comparison with the other places I've lived.</p>
<p>UVA has had two African-American Student Council Presidents over the last 4 years. Since they have to campaign and be elected by the entire student body (and African-American students make up only about 8-10%), I'd say that reflects plenty of white students (and others) who don't have a problem with skin color.</p>
<p>Wow, and having had two AA presidents means that no problem with skin color persists here in UVA!!!!</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I am 50+ years old. That doe not mean that my "childhood" was 50 years ago. Surely, UVA is not admitting people who can't subtract 22 9when I left) from 50? As for what is going on now, as I said, I visit often over a wide range of territory.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>UVa's standards of admissions today are much higher than they were in the past few decades.</p>
<p>
[quote]
UVa's standards of admissions today are much higher than they were in the past few decades.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Right. Which is why I was so surprised that that someone couldn't figure out that a person around 50 years old wouldn't have had a childhood 50 years ago.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, you were puposefully vague about just how old you are. That is fine, and probably a smart thing to do to keep your identity still somewhat a secret. But all the information you gave me is that you are older than 50, and that you grew up in southwestern/southern Virginia. It is just as reasonable for me to assume that you are 65 as it is that you turned 50 two days ago. You have clarified your age a little in your last post, but it still does not matter. Even if your childhood was 40 or so years ago, the country (and Southwest Virginia) have changed dramatically.</p>
<p>Southwetsern Virginia obviously does not have the same "cultural starting point" as the West Coast, but your argument has to do with Virginia in particular. Does Southwest Virginia have a signifigantly different starting cultural point than central Virginia, or Eastern Virginia, or up near Winchester? According to you, those places are not as racist as Southwest Virginia.</p>
<p>And I really do not believe that my point about you being an expert was a strawman argument. It was an exaggeration, but your whole argument revolves around the fact that you had better knowledge of the area than Globalist, and thus were in a better position to comment. Your argument only had the evidence of your expertness/expierence to back it up.</p>
<p>But through all that, if you see racism in Southwest Virginia, I might disagree with you, but you are entitled to your opinion.</p>
<p>Marlin:</p>
<p>Look, Marlin, you're what? 18? 19? And you've lived and worked outside of the place you grew up for how many years? And your work career is exactly how many years? </p>
<p>Let me try this another way. I seriously doubt it will do any good, but what the heck. If I didn't want to tilt at windmills, I wouldn't be a teacher, would I?</p>
<p>I once spent a great deal of time in a part of Oklahoma next to a reservation while consulting to a Fortune 500 company. I was invited to dinners, went to the hotel bar on occasion, and spent my days with an plant office in a building filled with, mostly, white males (though there were a few white females and a very few non-white people).</p>
<p>During the time I spent in this area of Oklahoma, not a day went by that someone didn't say SOMETHING nasty about "Indians." </p>
<p>Now, I have NEVER heard anyone in south or southwest Virginia say anything nasty about "Indians" in my 50+ years of living and visiting there. Not ever. So, I conclude that there are more people in that part of Oklahoma who are racist about Amerinds than there are in south and southwest Virginia. And it's a reasonable conclusion. It's always BARELY possible that my experience in that part of Oklahoma was atypical, but given the time I spent there, and the frequency of racist comments about Amerinds, and given the time I've spent in south and southwest Virginia, and the lack of frequency there (zero) of negative comments about Amerinds, the odds that I would be wrong in making that statement are so slim that they really don't merit much consideration.</p>
<p>In the place I live now, I cannot remember the last time I heard an ethnic joke involving African Americans. I cannot remember every hearing the N-word used. Not ever. I can also say the same about some other areas in which I've spent a fair amount of time. But I CANNOT say this about south and southwest Virginia, because I cannot remember a single time I've visited when I did NOT hear the N-word at least once, or a racist joke at least once.</p>
<p>So, yeah, without hard, methodologically sound data, it's all just opinion. The issue, of course, is which opinion is more informed. I would maintain that mine is more informed than yours, barring further information from you that would cause me to change my mind.</p>
<p>As for being "entitled to your opinion," that's mighty big of you. Considering that I've been attacked for my opinion on this thread, by you and others, it's nice to know that I'm actually entitled to one.</p>
<p>Next, this statement of yours:</p>
<p>
[quote]
but your argument has to do with Virginia in particular. Does Southwest Virginia have a signifigantly different starting cultural point than central Virginia, or Eastern Virginia, or up near Winchester? According to you, those places are not as racist as Southwest Virginia.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have gone back through this thread, and I fail to find anywhere that I made any representations about parts of Virginia other than the south and southwest. I said that the south and southwest were notable. I did not absolve the rest of Virginia. Why do you say I did? It's interesting you should bring up Winchester, since I've been there about once every three years or so. I'd say that Winchester is quite a different place from, say, South Boston.</p>
<p>Finally, saving the best for last, I just love this statement:</p>
<p>
[quote]
And I really do not believe that my point about you being an expert was a strawman argument. It was an exaggeration,
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What I love about it is that I apologized for a "straw man" argument that was also an exaggeration ... but it was still a straw man by definition. When I made the apology, I just KNEW that it wouldn't be returned. One of the tough things about being a psychologist is that you get so you can predict these things pretty well. I'd really prefer surprises.</p>
<p>Tarhunt:</p>
<p>I can count with the fingers on one hand the times that I have heard the N-word used in a derogatory way in Southwest Virginia where I have lived for 18 years. I visit New Jersey about a month each summer, and I can honestly say that I hear the N-word used there on a frequent basis. Should I say that the suburbs of New York in New Jersey are more racist in Southwest Virginia?Using the same logic that you have I should make such a claim. </p>
<p>Nice patting yourself on the back about what I was going to say. Again, my statement calling you an expert was not a strawman argument. The only evidence/validity to your claim is that your opinion is "more informed" than mine. You are arguing from a postion of authority as you yourself claim, so more correctly I should have sarcastically said that you are "well informed" rather than calling you an "expert". I apololgize, even though both convey the same meaning. </p>
<p>In regards to the side meme argument:
You statement that Southwest and the South were notable for their racism claims that those areas are different than the rest of Virginia for their racism. I did not claim that you absolved the rest of Virginia.
Yes, Winchester is different from South Boston. But South Boston is different from Christiansburg. I'd say Danville is similiar to Richmond, and Winchester is quite similiar to Roanoke. Why is Roanoke more racist than Winchester and Richmond less racist than Danville?
We have gotten so far away from memes that I don't even want to take the effort to relate it back.</p>
<p>Are there in informal polls or surveys of student support for George "Macaca" Allen this past election. That would be illuminating about attitudes re race.</p>
<p>^^^lol w-t-f</p>
<p>This is almost funny to read. I'm black and frequently visit UVA to visit friends (I'm still a senior, but I am applying). Race will really only be a problem if you make it a problem. Kids there come from everywhere, and most people have come in contact with blacks, asians, whites, latinos, etc. I go to a VERY white school and have NO black friends here and have no problem with that. It will likely be the same way if I attend UVA and I'm fine with that.</p>
<p>That's a very admirable and progressive attitude, alwaysinsession.</p>
<p>"Wow, and having had two AA presidents means that no problem with skin color persists here in UVA!!!!"</p>
<p>Tenniscraze, you seem to have a comprehension problem. Your post bears no reflection of what I actually said.</p>
<p>FLVADAD, trust me, there ARE people here who find it problematic to have AA as student-body presidents, which I think speaks very shamefully of the racist attitude in UVA.</p>
<p>Tennisraze, I agree with you that there are some people at UVA, as there are on many campuses, that harbor racist attitudes. I'm sure one would not have to dig very hard to find evidence of that. In fact, the latter permeates society to the extent that I'd actually be surprised if that were not the case. So I agree that issues exist, I just don't see anything particular to UVA making them worthy of being singled out over and above any others. Thus, Black students, in my opinion, do not need to be any more apprehensive about their social and academic opportunities at UVA than at other peer institutions. </p>
<p>I brought up the point about the AA student body presidents not because I think UVA is a racial nirvana, but because I think the fact of it speaks to the notion that there is a large population of progressively minded students there who counterbalance the school's unflattering historical reputation regarding race relations. IMO this bodes well for future applicants who are trying to discern their own prospects for fitting in and doing well at UVA. </p>
<p>You disagree?</p>
<p>My initial interest in this thread was because my S is a URM and has interest in UVA. He will probably apply. Tarhunt, an excellent read on the art of debating. I've been guilty of straw man arguments in trying to get my point of view across, but I'm cured of that. I'm saving your post(s) as an excellent example of making a point, debunking a counterpoint and reinforcing a point of view with more information. I appreciate the candor in discussing the attitudes at UVA that may be more prevalent than one would be to determine from a brochure or book. If there is self segregation at any campus, it's wise to examine the underlying causes.</p>