Rank the following law schools? Which would you attend?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Tranandy...yes I am a California resident. I'm not sure if I want to practice in California though. </p>

<p>I agree Mich has a top reputation. I hear that it's also more famous abroad in Europe than some of the other schools (from LLMs). </p>

<p>I also like U Penn, but it seems to waitlist many of the applicants, so I'm really taking a shot in the dark with Penn. </p>

<p>Mdoc, thanks for the response. I also read a few threads that said that some firms only interview top 10% at UCLA/USC, but take the top 20-30% at the T-14. </p>

<p>As for many people choosing GULC as a top choice, tbh this somewhat surprises me, after reading a lot of law threads. I've heard that it is a bit of a "degree mill" and is seen as the TTT of the T-14 because of its part-time program. It also seems to accept the most transfers out of all the T-14. </p>

<p>As for the tiers within the T-14, JPArsenal seems to hit on the general consensus, from what I've read about law school rankings on various websites.</p>

<p>If I were ranking this, I would not put Northwestern in the same "tier" as CLS and NYU, btw. It's probably in the same tier as Duke. I think this partly stems from the fact that it dips a bit lower for some numbers because it values WE over pure numbers, and its new 2 year accelerated program somewhat throws off the rep a little.</p>

<p>Tbh, I am leaning towards Penn and Mich out of my current list. I hope at least one of them accepts me...if not both. :( Penn is a bit unpredictable.</p>

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<p>UCLAri,
I've been to NYC many times; my aunt/cousins live there. At least it has good public transit and it isn't a festival of strip malls, parking lots, bodyshops, and gas stations. ;)</p>

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<p>Is Texaslawyer for real? The Op didn't even ask about Florida and Alabama. And, who in their right mind would choose those schools over Penn, Virginia, Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA and dozens of other schools assuming the person has no interest in practicing in Florida or Alabama?</p>

<p>Also, Duke over Yale? Please, maybe if Duke was free.</p>

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<p>tranandy: You may be a college student and not realize the incredible quality found at many non-Top 14 law schools. Fordham, Florida, Georgia, Texas & Alabama are great law schools, but with mostly regional recruiting. I would select Florida over Penn, Michigan, Berkeley & UCLA, for example. I believe that there are about 32 very elite law schools in the US out of the approximately 200 accredited law schools. The two main differences between a school ranked #28 and #8 are the across the board quality of the students & regional versus national recruiting.
Law school should only be two years, in my opinion. Those desiring specialist certification could attend a LLM Program in litigation, taxation, labor relations, etc. or get a second graduate degree outside the legal field.
I attended law schools (JD & LLM programs at two different law schools) with many who turned down Top 14s to attend schools closer to where they want to practice. Many of the most successful lawyers that I know went to law schools that you probably never knew existed.
The reality is that a Top 14 law school will get you a good start with big firms in major cities, but few make partner & many burnout, or more serious consideration for a Federal judicial clerkship, especially Chicago & Yale grads.
No litigator that I have encountered has ever been impressed or intimidated by facing a Harvard Law graduate or any graduate of a Top 14 school. What I fear is facing attorneys with good relationships with the court.</p>

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<p>Coldwind, I'm not a college student, I'm an attorney. Although I generally agree that too many students focus just on the numerical rankings and not on fit, I can't not disagree more that recommending schools like Florida, Georgia and Alabama to the OP would be foolhardy when the OP has the numbers to get into a Top 10 school or even get huge scholarships from schools in the Top 25. </p>

<p>The OP has indicated no interest whatsoever in Florida or Alabama for practice. Notwithstanding your opinion, he's got to be literally INSANE to go to those schools over Penn, Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA or the other T14 if he wants to eventually practice in any of the major legal markets after law school -- NYC, LA, SF, DC, Chi. I work for an SF big law firm and have done recruiting. We have never even interviewed someone from Florida, Alabama or Georgia. We have attorneys from practically every T14, UCLA and USC in our office though.</p>

<p>Keep in mind, the OP can probably get scholarships from schools like Vandy, WUSTL, USC, GW, Notre Dame and in-state tuition and aid from UCLA. Those are all great schools not in the T14, which would provide great opportunities to the OP as well.</p>

<p>Although I respect your opinion and I don't believe that Texaslawyer's advice was authentic.</p>

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<p>tranandy: Please read more carefully. TexasLawyer did not recommend those school to the OP; he simply listed his personal choices of law schools.
Your paragraph which uses the phrase "literally insane" suggests comments of a young, emotional, and inexperienced attorney. Neither I nor TexasLawyer indicated a preference to work for a large firm in a major city, although I have done so.</p>

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<p>Coldwind, I apologize for the hyperbole if it offends your sensibilities. You are entitled to your opinion on Florida and Alabama, but you don't know who I am, my age or my experience. </p>

<p>Have you ever done legal recruiting? I have raised nothing but facts to the OP. Schools in the t14, Texas, UCLA, USC and Vanderbilt are the major national schools. Florida and Alabama are no where close. It would be foolish, wrongful, mistaken, whatever term you want to use, to recommend to a young college student to pick Florida and Alabama over the much better schools listed, all else being equal, especially in this economy. So far you are the only one who disagrees with me because apparently Texaslawyer did not actually give a recommendation above</p>

<p>Do you actually disagree with any of my advice to the OP or are you just offended because you are an alum of one of the SEC law schools?</p>

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<p>tranandy,</p>

<p>A friend of mine graduated from UC Davis law school and his first job was with Paul Hastings in Los Angeles. People may pick Georgia over those schools for variety of reasons (e.g. finance). The fact that your firm recruits at USC, which isn't a T-14, shows that recruiting is a bit regional even for a SF big law firm. That said, I do agree with you most people wouldn't pick FL,GA,AL over any of the T-14 schools especially if finance isn't a factor.</p>

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<p>Also, according to USNews, USC's peer assessment is 3.6 out of 5.0, while AL/GA have 3.3. So it seems to me AL/GA are not that far behind USC and their tuition are quite a bit lower.</p>

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<p>Do you think the PA scores really matter when it comes time to get a job, though?</p>

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<p>tranandy: What strikes me as unusual is for a supposed attorney to be so careless when reading & interpreting others' posts. Your writing also tends to be too emotional for a lawyer of even a couple of years experience. All I know from your past posts is that you are a Sports Management major who attended the Univ. of Michigan for undergraduate school & that your knowledge about law schools is limited to USNews rankings.
Graduates of Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Fordham, Boston College, Boston University, Illinois, Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Wm. & Mary, Indiana, Wash. & Lee, Notre Dame, Emory, Minnesota and several other law schools who are in the top 10% of their class and/or on law review would be welcome for an interview anywhere in the country.
Sam: Many of my friends selected Alabama, Florida & Georgia over Top 14 schools--even (gasp) Harvard--but all were from those states, enjoyed in state tuition & planned to remain in the Southeast US.</p>

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<p>If a student does not have plans to practice in a particular geographic area after law school, then my advice is to go to the best ranked school he/she can. Doors will remain open longer. If someone knows they want to practice in Georgia, Florida, Alabama, etc. then those schools are fine. Doors will be closed from those schools elsewhere unless you are top of the class/law review. No one can predict how they will do in law school, so going to a regional school assuming you will graduate near the top of the class is a risk. This assumes that ability to pay tuition is not a factor in the decision.</p>

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<p>I don't agree with the advice offered in the above post. Performance in law school counts for more than the name of the law school when considering the Top 35 or so law schools. Law students finishing in the top 10% of the class at schools ranked in the top 15 to 40, are more impressive than those finishing in the bottom half of top 14 law schools that rank their students (and yes, I realize that even the bottom half of grads from the top 5 to 10 law schools get top jobs when graduating). Will job opportunities come flocking to the Georgia law review grad from Chicago, New York & California--of course not; the Florida, Iowa, Wake forest, Georgia grad will have to take the initiative and mail out resumes to firms in the desired location outside their geographical region.
"Doors will remain open longer." = I disagree with respect to law schools within the top 40. The longer that one is out of law school, the more real life performance/specialization as an attorney matters.
P.S. If you can bring in substantial clients, or have a history of doing so, then all you need is bar membership as the name of the law school attended is not relevant.</p>

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<p>Coldwind - I have been a legal recruiter for over 20 years and where someone goes to law school never stops mattering - to certain firms. Class rank matters - long after graduating. If someone wants the door to remain open to those firms, then they have to realize that. I work with large firms that will not interview people from lots of law schools - no matter how well students did at those schools. I have corporate clients who will only hire from T14 - no exceptions. That is what I mean by keeping doors open. You can say you wouldn't want to work at places that have those policies, and I can accept that, but it is information that some may want to know now rather than later. I don't disagree that graduation in the top 10% of some schools is better than graduating in the bottom half of better schools. In my post, however, I said that is a risk because if you graduate below the top third of schools outside the T14 and are not on the law review, options at many firms are greatly limited.</p>

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<p>I don't know whether or not you are a legal recruiter, but I know what I have seen & experienced over several decades since graduating law school. And if you are a legal recruiter, you are missing out on a tremendous amount of talent for the short sightedness of a prestige name. What do your firms do when the rankings change? Don't you owe it to your clients to inform them of the realities? Are they still seeking Bell & Howell projectors?
Sorry for my scepticism, but I know & have known too many lawyers & legal recruiters to be able to accept your postings. To make it easy, why not name a few firms that only interview & hire from certain law schools so that we can validate your claims?</p>

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<p>You are preaching to the choir. I have made the argument for years that "biglaw" shouldn't be so focused on credentials and there are certain practice areas in which they are not. Attorneys in bankruptcy, government contracts, construction law, employee benefits, estates and trusts, for example, don't tend to need the same credentials as those in general litigation,corporate,real estate, and tax. After a downturn in an area when few attorneys go into a particular area and that area picks up, then credentials requirements may relax. I recall when being able to spell "mortgage backed securities" might get you a job. However, many college students don't know in which area they will practice and a booming practice area today can be gone tomorrow. My advice is strictly for those who have no idea what they'll be doing and where they'll be doing it. I stand by my advice, that in that circumstance, go to the best law school you can.</p>

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<p>Coldwind, I don't know what I'm really misinterpreting. It seems to me that we not really in disagreement. You earlier advised that NU and GULC would be your preferences. Those are great schools and those would be solid fits for the OP given his/her numbers. I stated my preference for UM, NU and Penn as targets. I also think the OP has viable chances at Stanford and Berkeley.</p>

<p>All I'm really advocating that some schools place much better into big law, academia, clerkships, DOJ, etc. -- this is the divide between the national and regional schools. I also don't believe that the T14 are the only national schools like some US News junky. I'd also place BC, UCLA, USC, ND, Texas, Vandy, BU on the sliding scale of national. Maybe I'm missing one or two other schools. </p>

<p>This does not mean that regional schools are not excellent choices for a lot people. GW, Davis, Hastings, Fordham, and practically all the major state schools that dominate their home state: Florida, Alabama, OSU, UW, Colorado, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc can all be great choices if in-state tuition and local factors are factored in. Nevertheless, these are still regional schools and you will likely need to finish in the top 10-20% to have solid options outside the region. </p>

<p>Given the OP's 169 and 3.8, he does not need to go to a regional school and have to worry about finishing in the top 10-20% to get choice job offers. He can go to a national school and finish in the top 50-75% and work at any number of places. If finances are a concern, he is a California resident, Hastings, Davis, UCLA and Berkeley would all be good in-state options that place well in California and other regions.</p>

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<p>Fair enough. It appears that for each of us that experience is the best teacher. But we both should realize that firm profiles are available and I highly doubt that even one big law firm consists only of attorneys that graduated from top 14, or even top 20, law schools. If you can think of even one such firm, I would be interested to know. Again, a comparison to the quality of legal schools at Alabama, Georgia, Florida compared to top 14 is like comparing a Lexus to a Mercedes Benz.
tranandy: It should be of no surprise that two or three lawyers have differing opinions. The old saying that "in a town with one lawyer, the lawyer will starve, but in a town with two lawyers, both will thrive" is still true.</p>

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<p>Coldwind - I deal with lateral hiring only and can only speak to that. Again, my advice is geared towards keeping all options open and playing the numbers game. Obviously there are attorneys from lower ranked schools at prestigious firms, but there are many more from the top ranked schools or they are top graduates from the regional schools. Students can go to Lawyers</a>, Find a Lawyer, Law Firm & Attorney Directory - martindale.com and do an advanced search in any given city and type in the name of a law school and see where these grads are.</p>

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<p>Coldwind, I agree with you that some big firms focus too much on the law school and not the graduate. I get annoyed a lot when my firm denies a great Hastings grad an offer for a less personable person at a higher ranked school. </p>

<p>You are correct that practically every big firm can't survive by only hiring Top20 grads. There just isn't a big enough pool. But, there are a handful of uber-prestigious boutiques or mid-size firms that will only recruit from Top 15-20. </p>

<p>I'm familiar with California ones:</p>

<p>Munger Tolles (Charlie Munger's firm; sidekick to Warren Buffett):</p>

<p>Munger</a>, Tolles & Olson LLP</p>

<p>Out of less than 200 attorneys, over 70 graduated from H,Y, or S law school. Basically everyone else graduated from a Top 15</p>

<p>Keker & Van Nest:</p>

<p>Keker</a> & Van Nest LLP</p>

<p>Basically all Top 10 grads.</p>

<p>Bigger firms such as Quinn Emanuel, Cravath, Wachtell and Covington & Burling recruit about 90%+ of their grads from Top 20 schools.</p>