<p>I have had partners who graduated from "Law School X" tell me not to send candidates from "Law School X." I guess they thought they were the first and last graduate from that law school who was really great. A partner in DC told me years ago not to send candidates from Vanderbilt Law - he said they just hadn't had good luck with them. I'm sure that partner is no longer involved in hiring, but that is just an example of how narrow - minded some people are.</p>
<p>Whoa...thanks for all the advice guys, and the arguing. It's interesting that some firms don't even step out of the T-10, Jesus that's harsh.</p>
<p>Not that anyone cares, but I think I've decided on my preference for the schools out of this list, after reading more literature about law schools:
Mich/Penn
Cornell/Northwestern
UCLA/USC/Duke/GULC</p>
<p>I don't think I'd be inclined to live/work in the South, which is why I'm not too keen on Duke. (I know, this would offend my Southern boyfriend. Btw, I'm female.) I think I'd prefer to work in NYC, Chi or SF.</p>
<p>Though I am not a recruiter, but an attorney who has been actively involved in recruiting newly-minted and lateral attorneys for my employer, my experience has been quite similar to cartera's. The most prestigious law firms and many in house counsel positions hire mainly attorneys with degrees from top law schools, whether that hiring takes place immediately following graduation from law school or later. Yes, there will absolutely be a smattering of attorneys from less prestigious law schools, but even in a firm of several hundred or more attorneys, generally there are no more than a handful from any given school, and often each of those attorneys in the handful was at the very top of their classes (and I mean more than top 10%). </p>
<p>Certainly, not everyone wants to work for BIGLAW or Fortune 100 companies, and that is just fine. However, for anyone considering law school, I think it is important to note that if you want a BIGLAW/very prestigious boutique firm/Fortune 100 career, where you attend law school will continue to be an important criteria throughout your career.</p>
<p>OP, what university did you get your undergraduate from ? What was your major ? My senior high school son is interested in going to law school sometime. He wants to go to a top university for his undergraduate, with his preference being Georgetown. I rather have him not collect all this debt for his undergraduate. My question is, how much does it matter where you received your undergraduate from, provided one has high GPA and a high LSAT score ? Would going to University of Florida be a disadvantage to be admitted to he top law schools or a top graduate program ?
I keep telling him to not go into debt for undergraduate school, so he can aspire to go a top graduate or law school and take out loans for those. He thinks Georgetown is worth acquiring $100,000 in debt for undergraduate.</p>
<p>Here are some statistics that might be helpful:</p>
<p>**In one very prestigious NYC-based law firm with over 500 attorneys working in NYC and abroad, the following are true:</p>
<p>7.5% of all attorneys graduated from foreign law schools, all of whom are foreign nationals
57.3% of all attorneys attended law school at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn or
Stanford
74.4% of all attorneys attended law school at a T14 law school</p>
<p>If you disregard the foreign nationals who attended foreign law schools, 62.0% of all attorneys attended law school at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn or Stanford, and 80.5% of all attorneys attended law school at a T14 law school.</p>
<p>**In a second prestigious NYC-based law firm with over 500 attorneys working in NYC and several other domestic offices, as well as abroad, the following are true:</p>
<p>18.3% of all attorneys graduated from foreign law schools, all of whom are foreign nationals
46.9% of all attorneys attended law school at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn or Stanford
56.9% of all attorneys attended law school at a T14 law school</p>
<p>If you disregard the foreign nationals who attended foreign law schools, 57.4% of all attorneys attended law school at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Penn or Stanford, and 73.8% of all attorneys attended law school at a T14 law school.</p>
<p>Interestingly, of the attorneys at these two law firms who did not attend a T14 law school and who are not graduates of foreign law schools, the great majority attended a top undergraduate university and many have received other post-graduate degrees. </p>
<p>The non-T14 law school that is most represented by graduates employed at these two law firms is Fordham.</p>
<p>mcebel - This is just my opinion, but I don't know of any undergrad that is worth $100k in debt - especially if the plan is to go to grad school, where more debt will be incurred. A state flagship, or any other state school for that matter, will be fine for law school admission. Top grades and a top LSAT score will get your son into a top law school if that is what he wants. If he's smart enough to get into a top law school, his scores and grades likely suggest that now. Tell him to use those grades and scores to get as much merit money as possible for undergrad.</p>
<p>Interesting as I find the above posts to be supportive of my position. Of course large NYC law firms will be staffed primarily from the elite Northeastern law schools as they are close to one another & most Southerners don't want to live or work in NYC. All Sallyawp showed is that there is substantial regional recruiting at Fordham, Harvard, Columbia & Penn. Sallyawp's stats further prove my point, although she somehow thinks otherwise.
If you do well at a top 35, or so, law school and you want to work for a large firm in NYC, Los Angeles, San Francisco or Chicago, just send a copy of your resume & law school transcript & see what happens. Are NYC firms going to interview in Atlanta, New Orleans, Nashville, Houston or Dallas--probably not. And why should they as most students don't want to visit NYC much less live or work there. But, for those in the top 10% of a top 40 law school with or without law review who want to work in Philadelphia, NYC or Chicago, just take the initiative & seek an interview. Don't let the ignorance or laziness of others affect your dreams.
P.S. There is a reason that the old saying "New York City is the biggest hicktown in the country" survives; it is due to the prevalent highly provincial NYC attitude that everything in New York City is superior to the rest of the country. One quick visit to NYC will solve that mystery.</p>
<p>Thanks sallyawp for giving REAL stats. Now we can stop all the bickering and it's up to the individual to decide what those numbers mean to him/her (if 73.8%/80.5% is overwhelming enough) IF he/she actually wants to work for a big NYC law firm, which isn't everyone's cup of tea, as ColdWind just pointed out.</p>
<p>My friend hated his work when he was working for a large firm in LA. While I was envious of his salary, he was jealous of my lifestyle and how I seemed happier than he was. ;)</p>
<p>I agree with Cartera, any UG can get you into a good law school provided your GPA and LSAT are high enough. Last year Harvard had nearly 300 UG's represented in its first year class. I think most would agree that there are not nearly 300 elite UG's in the nation.</p>
<p>A state flagship like Florida for UG would save a lot of money and build a wealth of networking connections for you son. It should be considered as well as any other schools that offer scholarships and aid. If he knows for sure he wants to go to grad school, he would be better off saving money for grad school and then he won't be limited in his choices when choice of school will really matter.</p>
<p>
[quote]
All Sallyawp showed is that there is substantial regional recruiting at Fordham, Harvard, Columbia & Penn.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, actually the takeaway that I was going for that if you don't attend a T14 school, you actually have a much diminished chance of getting a job at these tippy top tier law firms. Worse yet, for the one or two people from each of many law schools outside of the T14 (including Vanderbilt, Boston University and UCLA) who obtain jobs at these law firms, they have to otherwise have stellar credentials to get in. </p>
<p>In additional, I would hardly call the recruiting at Harvard, Columbia and Penn regional, as law firms from across the country recruit at these schools with great regularity. There may be a preference among law students to stay in the city or region in which they attend law school (i.e. lots of Harvard grads in Boston, lots of Columbia grads in NYC, lots of Stanford grads in San Fran, lots of Northwestern grads in Chicago, etc.), but there are only a handful of law schools where law firms from across the country come to handpick their recruits. </p>
<p>You do indeed close some doors to yourself by attending a law school that does not have national recruiting reach, both while you are in law school and later in your career; however, many people may not care at all whether those doors are ever within their reach.</p>
<p>Yes, I think we all understood. No need to repeat the obvious on this thread. What you don't understand is exactly what poster Sam Lee more succinctly wrote in Post #49 above.</p>
<p>Agree with Sally. As stated before, if a student knows he/she wants to be in the New York region, then Fordham is a great choice. If that student has no idea where he/she wants to practice, then it may not be a great choice. It can then be a limiting choice. I get resumes from associates at large New York firms who are Fordham grads and I may have a really difficult finding a position for them in DC because Fordham is just not as well received in DC. Graduating in the top 10% with law review changes the equation. If someone graduates in the top 10% of a top 40 school, I would not discourage that person from sending a resume to any firm in the country. If someone graduates in the top half from any any one of those schools, then all bets are off.</p>
<p>And some law firms have stringent & peculiar requirements. When I graduated law school, one prominent Atlanta law firm would not accept a resume from any law grad not in the top five (5%) percent of the class--regardless of law school attended (needless to write that no Yale Law grads got an interview) & also required proof of college & high school grades (rumor was that one of the senior founding partners never received a grade below an "A" in his life). Another interesting, but useless fact, is that I worked at a large law firm with an attorney whose last name was Harvard & guess where he went to law school.
P.S. I just wrote a note to myself "Don't Tease The Lawyers".</p>
<p>I disagree strongly with cartera. I have an undergrad degree from a top private. I have a law degree from a law school which is more prestigious. We 'rents paid sticker price for my lawyer "kid" to go to a top undergrad. We paid about half of the cost of a top law school. Kid went into debt for the rest. Given a choice, I'd advise any parent to pay for undergrad, not law school. </p>
<p>First, there is the obvious point that not every high school senior who says (s)he wants to be an attorney will go to law school. Personally, I think it ill-advised to choose where to go to college based on the fact you want to be an attorney. Second, undergrad education does more to change who you are as a person. It's where you develop the interests that make life more interesting. Most--though certainly not all--people tend to make more life-long friends in college than in law school. College is where you learn important skills, like writing, which you need to succeed as an attorney. </p>
<p>I'm known some brilliant law students who went to "scantron U" and got very high LSAT scores, but never really "rocked" law school because they didn't write well. At most top law schools--and I'm including those well below the top 14--your grade in a course is all about how well you write essays. At many law schools, you can "write on" to the law journal. If you aren't already a good writer, you're not going to make it. </p>
<p>Indeed, at least here in NY, the bar exam is also in large part about how well you write. That's why so many foreign nationals fail the bar here. They are smart people and they've crammed their heads full of the same facts everyone else has in order to pass the bar. However, when they have to write essays, they often have a problem. There is a woman I know who is a graduate of a top law school who runs a business coaching foreign grads to pass the bar and ALL she teaches them is how to write essays. They KNOW the other stuff. (Most have failed the bar at least once before they hire her. ) </p>
<p>Students graduate from law school and go to work for a top law firm. (You don't have to be a <em>star</em> to get a job in biglaw coming from the top 6 and except for a few firms, you don't need to be a star from the top 14.) The partner throws a brief or affidavit back and says "This doesn't flow. Fix it." The partner is not a professor and is NOT going to sit down and teach the new associate how to write. It just doesn't happen. The associate gets a review and is told "you need to improve your writing." Great, (s)he is working 70 hour weeks. Exactly what does the associate DO to improve his/her writing? It's not as if they have the time to take a course! </p>
<p>While law schools are better at teaching writing than they were back in the Iron Age when I went to law school, they still aren't great at it. It really, really helps if you're a good writer when you start law school. While some people are fortunate and attend high schools which teach writing skills or go to large universities but are in small programs in which they are taught to write, lots of folks go to large universities where they take multiple-choice exams for 4 years. They may write one paper over 10 pages a year.
(Please understand I am NOT claiming this is true at all colleges and/or in all majors.) Writing really is something you get better and faster at the more you do of it. It also helps a lot to get feedback on your writing. That happens in college. It is especially likely to happen when you attend a college which emphasizes writing. I don't think that's true of many flagship state Us. It rarely happens in law school. </p>
<p>Next, your child can borrow more money to go to law school in his/her own name than
(s)he can borrow to go to college. If you do go to a top law school, incurring the debt for law school is a MUCH less risky proposition than incurring it for undergrad. That may seem to undercut the argument I'm making, and I acknowledge that to some extent that's the case. But, as a parent, I don't feel guilty about the fact that my kid is in debt for law school. I know my kid can pay it off. (My kid's salary all of one year out of law school is more than the total cost of any US law school. Yes, that's before tax, but still...) </p>
<p>Moreover, when my kid was in law school, I discovered the astonishing fact that if you don't borrow $ for law school, you're ineligible for some programs! For example, several law schools subsidize students who take low paying or no paying jobs the summer after
1L year. My kid took a fantastic job for no pay which was, believe it or not, hard to get. The law school gave my kid enough to pay the rent. This wasn't "borrowed." It was a grant. And, if you haven't borrowed money for law school, it was ASSUMED that you could afford to take such a job and you didn't get a grant! </p>
<p>Then, there's this thing called "loan forgiveness." If my kid had chosen to take a low paying job (other than clerking), then my kid woudn't have to pay back all of the money due that year. Moreover, and this is something few people realize, some UNDERGRADUATE debt is eligible for forgiveness too! If you don't go into debt for law school, you aren't eligible for loan forgiveness. If you actually pay $150,000 in tuition and decide you'd like to take a job as an ADA or a federal public defender, you won't get a refund. If you borrowed $150,000 to go to law school and went to one with a good loan forgiveness program, you won't have to pay back a lot of the money. So, law school will end up costing you less out of pocket. </p>
<p>Add in the fact that many of the top private law schools do give financial aid, which is based on PARENTAL INCOME AND ASSETS, and, of course, the folks who saved all that money by taking the merit money for college, will, in certain brackets, find that they didn't save much because now the law schools will refuse fin aid because of the amount of assets their parents have.If their parents had spent the money on college, their assets wouldn't be high enough to make their kids ineligible for law school fin aid. </p>
<p>Now, please understand that this is certainly something folks can disagree about and I respect cartera's opinion. I know that it's the more common one. But, personally, as a parent and attorney, I disagree for the reasons stated above. I hope I've at least given some of you "food for thought" and you won't just assume that saving the $ for law school and scrimping for UG is always the best option.</p>
<p>jonri - we don't necessarily disagree. My answer is based on the debt issue - the OP asked if Georgetown is worth $100k in debt assuming grad school is in the picture. Taking those facts, I don't advise a kid going $100k in debt. If the parents can pay for Georgetown or for the vast majority of it, then that changes the equation. Then I would say go for a top undergrad. That doesn't seem to be the situation for the OP. This kid might be looking at $200k in debt after grad school. I'm not speculating on whether he will change his mind about law school.</p>
<p>jonri: I agree with your post #55 above. My belief is that the most important years of formal education begin in elementary school, then high school, followed by college/university. The most important education, however, begins at home prior to the typical formal schooling years. Many think otherwise since they focus on job interview opportunities at the most selective colleges/universities & graduate schools.
With respect to law schools: Many law schools require both a high class rank, such as top10%, as well as a writing competition to get onto law review. It would be interesting to know if there are any law schools which allow students to qualify for law review solely based on a writing competition regardless of class rank.</p>
<p>Legal writing ability is a strange thing. I read writing samples daily and I wish I could find a common thread as to why some are good and some are just awful. I don't care where someone goes to law school, if they want for me to find a job for them in litigation and they can't produce an excellent writing sample, I can't get them a job with the majority of my clients. I see horrible writing samples from students from top undergrads and law schools and I see great writing samples from students from less prestigious schools. It is a shame that lawyers do not take the time to mentor their associates with regard to writing because I believe that is the key. I was an English major at a school known for having a good writing program and I could write. I also did lots of writing in law school because I did a lot of moot court work. I was a litigator at a "biglaw" firm and I was still not prepared for the writing expected by the partners with whom I worked. Thank goodness they took the time to mark up my writing and send it back - as many times as necessary - until I could produce "pithy advocacy piece." I can recall, with horror, the amount of red on the first memo I wrote for my firm. If only I could re-write some of the samples I get now.</p>
<p>It is also worth noting that there are typically substantial benefits in attending a state flagship law school in the state or region that one intends to live & work. Significant cost savings for residents, bonding with future judges/lawyers/politicians & business owners in your state/region. If you want to live in Texas, Florida, Louisiana, Montana, Georgia, Idaho, Hawaii, or anywhere outside of the metropolitan Northeast, then you may be better off attending a flagship state university's law school rather than attending Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Chicago or Penn. Life can be much easier & much more successful with connections than with a fancy law school degree. And the law students at most flagship state university law schools are much more intelligent than students in highly selective colleges & universities. And those that aren't become local judges or major clients due to their family's business interests.</p>
<p>I agree that local and regional schools are excellent, and perhaps the best, choices when students know where they want to live and work.</p>