Rank the Ivy CAS's

College Search & Selection
61

<p>"In virtually all of these "rankings" discussions, people obsess for pages about incremental difference in the aggegate stats of incoming classes, and virtually ignore what goes on once these students actually get to campus: ie what the colleges themselves actually provide academically. Which colleges offer the most courses? The most majors? Best student-teacher ratio in upper-division courses? Fewest TAs? Most opportunity to take grad-level courses, for those so inclined? Research opportunities? Special Programs, such as immersion language study? etc."</p>

<p>Monydad summed it up perfectly. All of these rankings inevitably tie back to selectivity (ie quality of student body) rather than the actual programs at the schools. It's not surprising that Cornell students do slightly worse in law/med school admissions or whatever because the entering study body isn't as good to begin with. What you need to do is control for the quality of the student body and then see what value the actual college adds.</p>

62

<p>

Oh, OK, I got it. Cornell has 7 undergrad schools to Penn's 4.</p>

<p>But my original post (#55) was in response to unalove's finding that Penn was "too lacking of a liberal arts experience and the influence of Wharton too looming," as compared to Cornell. My point was that Penn's College of Arts and Sciences is actually much more dominant at Penn than Cornell's CAS is at Cornell, if for no other reason than because of its size and number of courses offered relative to the rest of Penn undergrad. Also, as I pointed out, Penn has a long tradition of encouraging interdisciplinary study among its 4 undergraduate schools, much more so I believe than any other university, including Cornell.</p>

63

<p>Perhaps Penn has a more vibrant liberal arts feel than I am giving it credit for-- though Cornell has a smaller percentage of CAS students than Penn, I felt like CAS carried the school, whereas with Penn, I feel like the prestige of the school is shared by Wharton and the CAS. I was turned off by a school that so prominently featured such a careerist academic program.</p>

<p>I've also been given an arsenal of reasons not to like Penn, which have been handed down from my parents, both Penn alumni.</p>

64

<p>^ Still, as undergrad business schools go, Wharton emphasizes the liberal arts component (i.e., courses in CAS) a lot more than most:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The emphasis on liberal arts.
We believe that students need a solid liberal arts education. That's why we require that one-third of your coursework be taken outside of Wharton. Want more? You can take up to 43% of your degree requirements in the arts & sciences. In fact, we want you to!

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/undergrad/subPage.cfm?pageID=7%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/undergrad/subPage.cfm?pageID=7&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I can understand the parental component--parental inculcation can be pretty powerful.:rolleyes: It's too bad your parents have such negative feelings about Penn. Fortunately for Penn and its fundraising, tens of thousands of alumni don't share those feelings.</p>

<p>On the other hand, maybe you should consider that if it weren't for Penn, you might not even exist!:)</p>

65

<p>Hahahahahaha. When push comes to shove about my parents' experiences with Penn, that's what they say.</p>

<p>They also went there 30+ years ago, when it didn't have the stature that it does today. Penn was the "toilet of the Ivies," and you only went there when you didn't get into any other school. Funny how things change!</p>

<p>I didn't know that Wharton kids had to do 1/3 of their courseload outside of the school or that they were encouraged to pursue liberal arts classes. However, for me, I wanted a school with a distinct focus in the liberal arts and little, if any, pre-professional options, so even though Wharton kids are brilliant and learned, I would prefer to hang out with the Haverford kids.</p>

66

<p>"They also went there 30+ years ago, when it didn't have the stature that it does today. Penn was the "toilet of the Ivies," and you only went there when you didn't get into any other school. Funny how things change!"</p>

<p>-Mine say the same thing! :rolleyes:</p>

67

<p>That's generally true for CAS--30+ years ago, Penn was the first choice for the overwhelming majority of Wharton students, but for only a relatively small minority of CAS students. Penn embarked on an ambitious program to change that (starting with the "Campaign for the Eighties" fundraising drive in the '70s), placing heavy emphasis on the enhancement of the undergraduate arts and sciences experience over the past 30 years, and the results speak for themselves. In October, Penn will announce a multi-billion-dollar capital campaign aimed squarely at consolidating and enhancing those gains (the development planning catchphrase at Penn these days is "from excellence to eminence").</p>

68

<p>At that time, big business was held in low regard, contempt actually, by a good chunk of rich kids from the Northeast, and demand for undergrad business programs was low. Moreover, NYC was dirty, dangerous, and in financial crisis, I assume Philadelphia was close to the same. The area around Columbia was quite not good, and the same could be said for the area around Penn.</p>

<p>The entrance stats for Penn's Arts & Sciences school back then actually exceeded Wharton's, I recall. The same was true at NYU's business school, whch admitted well over 70% of applicants.</p>

<p>Many students were into "counterculture", of which business was the antithesis. Mainstream business was perceived as profiteering from the Vietnam war effort, while students were being sent to die. Also the goal was not to get a terminal undergraduate degree and graduate, therefore becoming eligible for the draft. It was to major in liberal arts and go on to graduate school, thereby obtaining a student deferment from the draft.</p>

<p>Not to diminish "Campaign for the Eighties" fundraising , I'm sure this was quite important. All three of these schools (Penn, Columbia, NYU) have had major fundraising initiatives over the years, and improved themselves no doubt. But so have countless other schools who have not risen nearly so much as these three have.</p>

<p>I don't think one should diminish the impact of the resurgence of interest in, and regard for, business, and particularly Wall Street, among the public at large, beginning in the late 70s- early 80s. And, in the case of the NYC schools, the rise in the City itself. I'm less familiar with the fortunes of the City of Philadelphia, so I can't comment there. IMO the health of these two NYC schools, as well as Penn which, though Wharton may not be a majority, is nevertheless highly associated with business and finance, is not completely unconnected with the health of the NYC financial district.</p>

<p>While it's true that at that time Penn was less selective than some 35+ other schools, including all seven of the schools it played sports against,
it was still, in the whole scheme of things, a highly regarded and selective institution despite these obstacles. A so-called "toilet of the Ivies" (your words, not mine) is still most people's garden spot.</p>

69

<p>For what it's worth, my parents were generally pleased with their undergraduate education at Penn. They both had a few memorable profs (though I doubt my dad showed up for class), and my mom made connections with a prof who helped her get into prestigious grad schools on a full scholarship. They were able to find what they wanted at Penn... for my dad, a diploma, and for my mom, a free ticket to grad school.</p>

<p>However, I don't think their experience was specific to being at an Ivy and they never fawned on Penn or their Ivy League Experience the way many alumni fawn on their alma mater. They gave money for many years, too (why, I really don't know).</p>

<p>While I'm sure one can find a great undergrad educational experience at Penn (in fact, I know you can-- one of my favorite poets teaches there!) you can find a great educational experience almost anywhere.</p>

70

<p>"toilet of the ivies"--I thought that phrase was reserved for Cornell. </p>

<p>Are you even implying that Penn was less selective than Cornell SUNY colleges?</p>

71

<p>columbiahopeful isn't good at reading.</p>

<p>They were saying that was Penn's nickname like 30 years ago.</p>

72

<p>monydad, I was talking about Penn in the mid-70s, after the draft had ended. And I speak from personal experience.</p>

<p>While you're correct that all comparable schools have had significant capital campaigns in the past 30 years, Penn's campaigns--and especially the Campaign for the Eighties--have specifically targeted improvement of the arts & sciences undergrad experience vis-a-vis the rest of the university. Again, I know this from personal experience (I actually attended the kick-off for that campaign as a Penn student). Penn publicly acknowledged in the '70s that CAS undergrad was its perceived weak link (espescially compared to Wharton and Penn's other professional schools) and, as I said, embarked on a very deliberate (and highly successful) 30-year program to improve both the substance and the image of CAS. I agree with you that other factors have also contributed to Penn's general rise in prestige, but this significant focus on undergraduate liberal arts has been a major factor.</p>

73

<p>I was not interested in Cornell's other colleges, so I did not save this data. If you're interested, the data is available from the Cass & Birnbaum college guides of the time; you can request them from a public library. This will have detailed admissions stats for each college, including Cornell's ILR School and Penn's School of Nursing. It will also break them out by gender. Knock yourself out. </p>

<p>FWIW, student attitudes of the late 60s and early 70s carried onward for a few years afterwards; then I recall a rather drastic shift occurred right around 1975. At that time, the outgoing class was dressed in torn jeans and long hair, while the incoming class looked like a bunch of preppies.</p>

<p>I don't know how other capital campaigns compare. But I would imagine the high profiles of Wharton alums Michael Milken and Donald Trump in the 80s made a huge impact on Penn's reputation generally, beyond Wharton.</p>

74

<p>Too bad the schools don't provide such detailed admissions data anymore. Might authoritatively end--or perhaps start?--a few debates here on CC.</p>

<p>I don't know about you, but I was in college in 1975 (and a bit before and after). My recollection is that the big shift in student priorities (e.g., to preppiness, business, etc.) didn't occur until later in the '70s and really in the '80s (think yuppies, the movie "Wall Street", Boesky--also a Wharton alum--and Milken, etc.). In any event, while Wharton has certainly flourished in the last 30 years, as I said, Penn as a university has made a concerted and significant effort to build up its undergrad liberal arts program during that time (perhaps even more than Wharton, which seems to take care of itself for obvious reasons), and has focussed a substantial portion of its fundraising and development efforts in that direction. In other words, the university has made a concerted effort to bring the reputation and prestige of CAS into parity with that of Wharton.</p>

75

<p>45percenter---</p>

<p>I agree PennCAS's reputation has increased dramatically in the last 15 years. But I think in all reality, until Penn stops segregating its schools and adopts a policy similar to Princeton's "One University", CAS will never achieve parity with Wharton simply because Wharton is, and always will be more selective unless it increases its class size.</p>

<p>This holds true for other Ivies including Columbia and Cornell. For Cornell, the CAS, Hotel, and Engineering schools will always be more prestigious than the rest. At Columbia, despite higher SAT scores @ Fu, the College will always be more prestigious than the Engineering school simply due to selectivity. </p>

<p>I think all the Ivies should universally adopt a 1 University Policy. There would be no downside and with it, true parity can be achieved. By creating the seperate admission policies for Wharton/CAS and Columbia COllege/Fu, the administrations almost subtly implies there are different standards of admissions for each division, thus creating de facto disparities in prestige.</p>

76

<p>"For Cornell, the CAS, Hotel, and Engineering schools will always be more prestigious than the rest"</p>

<p>based on what? In that list of 3 colleges, 1 has the highest acceptance rate university wide and the other has the lowest SAT/incomming student stats university wide. </p>

<p>" I think all the Ivies should universally adopt a 1 University Policy."</p>

<p>This isn't a bad idea, though I wonder if it would only appease a few uninformed idiots (those here on CC DO NOT share the public's opinion on most topics). Plus, there are others (like me) who identify certain ways with their 'school', are proud of it, and wouldn't be thrilled with a change.</p>

77

<p>Frankly, I prefer it the other way around. Just report each college seperately. The colleges ARE different. If they have separate admissions, applicants applying to a particular one college of a university should know the standards for that college, to get a better assessment of where they really stand, in terms of getting admitted to the college they are actually applying to.</p>

<p>This is the way they used to report it, when I was applying.</p>

<p>The consolidated approach completely obscures the very real differences in admissions stats/ chances between the colleges. To the detriment of all potential applicants to any of the individual colleges.</p>

78

<p>truazn,</p>

<p>Actually, PENN is the school that uses the moniker "One University", and not Princeton (to my knowledge). In fact, "One University" has been a major component of Penn's institutional identity since at least 1973:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/uplan/paoneuniv1972.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.archives.upenn.edu/primdocs/uplan/paoneuniv1972.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Further, Penn does not segregate its undergraduate schools any more than Princeton segregates its liberal arts program from its School of Engineering and Applied Science. In fact, in this regard the schools are pretty comparable. Both Penn and Princeton handle all undergraduate admissions through a single, unified admissions office and process. They both, however, evaluate applicants in separate pools for purposes of admission to liberal arts and SEAS (and, in the case of Penn, to Wharton and Nursing). Both schools also fully integrate undergraduates once they matriculate, so that all live together, take many classes together, etc. And at both schools, the separate curricular requirements are administered through the separate school offices. So, as I said, Penn and Princeton are actually very similar in this regard.</p>

<p>I agree with monydad that reporting each undergraduate division's admissions statistics separately would be of great benefit to applicants (and this would apply to Princeton SEAS, also). This is the way it was reported when I was applying, also (which I suspect is around the same time that monydad was applying :)).</p>

79

<p>gomestar, I don't think you should be involved in this discussion. Technically, you are not enrolled in an ivy--ILR is a SUNY College. And fyi, stop trying to cite things about me that you are completely misinformed about. Perhaps, you should worry about yourself and not others. I am afraid you are mistaking me for someone else. </p>

<p>Consult the SUNY website. <a href="http://www.suny.edu/Student/campuses_complete_list.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.suny.edu/Student/campuses_complete_list.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

80

<p>"Technically, you are not enrolled in an ivy--ILR is a SUNY College."</p>

<p>I would say "technically you are an idiot" ... but there's nothing technical about it. You have been proven wrong sooo many times, but like others here have so easily noted ... you can't read for crap. I'm really not surprised Columbia rejected you 3 years in a row - I never though you'd make the cut anyways, no matter how many times you try. </p>

<p>Furthermore, from the Cornell website: "All of the colleges of Cornell University are Ivy League." I can give you a link, but something tells me no matter what foolproof evidence I provide, you will still go around shouting "parts of cornell aren't ivy" like a drunk and coked up HY reject that is trying to muster the last bit of respect they can. </p>

<p>"And fyi, stop trying to cite things about me that you are completely misinformed about."</p>

<p>I found you on facebook, I'm 110% positive about it. You're white, have really huge eyebrows, pop your colar, and enjoy music like "g-unit" and "the game". After 1 year at Cornell, you barely had 30 facebook friends. You gave away enough information in your earlier sn's where it was really easy to identify you. As soon as you became aware, you changed it all up so I couldn't get to your profile anymore. And what do you know ... that very same profile just changed from a "northwestern" student (you cite it's where you were) to a UPenn student (where you cite now) - before it has listed "cornell", where you were before. What are the odds???? (the evidence I used to make my conclusion was as solid as it can be - others i've dicussed it with have agreed). </p>

<p>"Perhaps, you should worry about your own issues."
making sure I point out how foolish your statements are is really the only issue I have on my plate right now, at least until I move back to campus. </p>

<p>"Maybe if you didn't spend so much time on CC you would be doing better in ILR"
I've made the dean's list every semester on campus so far! <strong>pat on the back</strong>. </p>

<p>"which could be the easiest school at Cornell."
Could be, maybe is, likely not. </p>

<p>Congratulatons, Penn, you have a real winner with this kid here.</p>