<ol>
<li> Massachusetts Institute of Technology 4.9 </li>
<li> Stanford University (CA) 4.8
University of CaliforniaBerkeley 4.8 </li>
<li> California Institute of Technology 4.6
University of MichiganAnn Arbor 4.6 </li>
<li> University of IllinoisUrbana-Champaign 4.5 </li>
<li> Georgia Institute of Technology 4.4 </li>
<li> Cornell University (NY) 4.3 </li>
<li> Purdue UniversityWest Lafayette (IN) 4.2 </li>
<li> Carnegie Mellon University (PA) 4.1
Northwestern University (IL) 4.1
Princeton University (NJ) 4.1
University of TexasAustin 4.1</li>
</ol>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>Wow, now that's a LOT of text above (not Sam Lee's post but the Alexandre v. DMC exchange)... reminding me of my "required reading" days =)</p>
<p>I glanced and saw my name mentioned which perked my interest.... rest assured I will chime in with my $0.02 in a bit.</p>
<p>I don't think I'm going to like this.</p>
<p>Alex is a supporter of the "tier" system - he says that about 15 schools have claims to the top 10, with only the top ones who are definetely in there</p>
<p>I agree with him, sort of, but think there are only like 12 schools with such a claim</p>
<p>and the verdict?</p>
<p>Mich and Duke : both awesome schools that anyone should feel proud to attend.</p>
<p>That said,</p>
<p>I do side with DMC's position which counters Alexandre's assertion that the University of Michigan is a "definite" Top 10 school.</p>
<p>Mich is easily one of the nation's top 3 public Uni's (Cal, UVA being the other two of course) and at least by that measuring stick should, at a minimum, be considered one of the nation's top schools.</p>
<p>I have come around in my own thinking about these various "rankings".</p>
<p>What is clear is that you have "tiers":</p>
<p>I. HYPSM (which is pretty much universally accepted)</p>
<p>II. This is where the "debate" comes in... given that there are only 5 spots up for grabs (to round out a "true Top 10"), it's a difficult for anyone to convince me that UMich deserves a spot there above the likes of Caltech, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Cal etc. (we are already over 5) not to mention UChicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins and, yes, Duke! (now we over 15 schools at this point).</p>
<p>But again, I think the "tier" system is a much fairer and more accurate way of looking at all of these schools. Where Alexandre and I part company is Alexandre's assertion that Mich belongs in Tier II (to the extent that Tier II does not extend beyond 10-15 schools - if it extends to, say 20 schools, then yes, I can accept this argument). </p>
<p>On the other hand, I believe that Duke can definitely make a strong argument for a Tier II position - in a "tier" system I would accept someone arguing that Duke has a place there - even though I probably would put them at the low end of this tier vs. the so-called lower Ivies. That said, in an absolute numerical ranking system, I don't place Duke as a top 10 school - that's where DMC and I probably part ways (and I think that is where DMC had problems with some of my posts previously). </p>
<p>But that's ok. As long as we all realize that in the larger scheme of things, we are all splitting hairs at this point.</p>
<p>I think the thing that "hurts" UMich is the fact that it has this "Big 10 party school" reputation much like UVA does. By contrast, you don't really get those kinds of comments about Cal and its students - it just seems as though the student body (whether deserved or not) is generally seen as very bright and motivated across the board - giving the school a reputation with more "gravitas". That's not to say that at the very "highest end", the top students at Mich or UVA couldn't hold a candle to the very best vs. other top 10 schools - they most certainly could. But the problem is the higher degree of standard deviation at Mich / UVA vs. say Cal. (or other top 10 schools).</p>
<p>But again, I don't want to lose the forest for the trees: I've said it before and I'll say it again, Mich is a great institution (and so is Duke).</p>
<p>On a final note, if I had to "choose" between attending Duke or Mich for undergrad, I'd choose Duke.</p>
<p>I agree with 99% of what you stated. Tier-system gives a more accurate portrayal of where universities stand in comparison to one another. Personally, I think the difference between rank 6 and rank 10 is rather arbitrary and negligible.</p>
<p>Well said, Ivy_Grad. </p>
<p>P.S. Am I the only one who thinks "lower/inferior Ivies" is an oxymoron?</p>
<p>I guess following those guidelines my tier II would be Columbia Penn Duke CalTech and I don't know which other one</p>
<p>I think SamLee's ranking is a good one, since rankings become more accurate when on a specific graduate department</p>
<p>Hm....never thought I would participate in these type of posts. Oh what the hell</p>
<p>Tier II (in no particular rank):</p>
<p>UPenn
CalTech
Duke
UChicago
Columbia
Cornell</p>
<p>Brown, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Johns Hopkins would lie either in Tier II or Tier III. Definitely not IV, but I do not know enough to make a placement.</p>
<p>Many people have said inferior ivy is an oxymoron. To be honest, it pains me that Ivy-Grad says Duke is in the lower end of tier 2. However, it's an opinion and an honest one. I like the tier system, but I like being realistic as well. There are only 5 spots left. 5 schools must occupy those slots whether we like it or not. Now, obviously Caltech deserves a spot. But what about the others? We still have Dartmouth, Penn, Duke, Brown, Cornell, University of Chicago, Columbia, and Northwestern. I believe we can even widdle the list down to just Duke, Dartmouth, and Columbia, and Cornell, Penn. Those schools need to take the remaining four slots, but one of them has to go. Ivy_grad, what school do you believe is fit to take Duke's place? I just don't see Brown doing it for sure and to me, Duke=Penn. So the list has to become 11.</p>
<p>1-5. HYPMS</p>
<ol>
<li>Caltech</li>
</ol>
<p>7-11. Duke, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn</p>
<p>What's wrong with these ranks?</p>
<p>
[quote]
P.S. Am I the only one who thinks "lower/inferior Ivies" is an oxymoron?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are not alone. LOL.</p>
<p>DMC, I see someone else can't cope with the Top 10...we ought to make it a top 12...or 13</p>
<p>
[quote]
1-5. HYPMS</p>
<ol>
<li>Caltech</li>
</ol>
<p>7-11. Duke, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn</p>
<p>What's wrong with these ranks?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nothing wrong my friend. It's your opinion and I respect that.</p>
<p>I would say a few things about your particular list:</p>
<p>1) Where is Brown? </p>
<p>2) In fact, if I had to re-work your list and not even "touch" Duke (which we know you would contend) - even then, I'd rank Brown over Cornell</p>
<p>3) Further, If I could re-work your list and "remove" Duke (which I would) I'd put the following schools ahead of it:
Brown
Cal
UChicago
Northwestern</p>
<p>But again, I'm not trying to diss on Duke - it's a great school and definitely one of the nation's "elite" schools.</p>
<p>The more I discuss this topic, the more I am certain that absolute numerical rankings are rubbish.</p>
<p>Hmm...Brown. Ivy_Grad could you explain your position on that? I'm not skeptical of Brown's elite status. In fact, I chose Duke over Brown.</p>
<p>I am just curious as to your thinking.</p>
<p>Ivy-Grad, in all seriousness, why don't you like Duke? I'm asking you frankly b/c you tended to evade the question when I asked it earlier. Like, you've said ivy-wannabe and so forth, and I just wanted to know why. That's all. I turned down Dartmouth, Cornell, and Upenn (waitlist though lol) for duke. Was I being insane?</p>
<p>if a list is going to include cornell than i believe that brown should be there too</p>
<p>I think there is no doubt Duke is absolutely on par with Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Brown, and Penn for undergrad. It has an outstanding student body, great academics, etc.</p>
<p>DMC,</p>
<p>I have NOTHING against Duke. By this logic, then, I should have something "against" 99% of the other universities / colleges in the US, because I don't place them in an absolute numerical Top 10? Or more to the point, should I turn around and say, "DMC, enough is enough, what do you have against Brown or UChicago or Cal?" because they don't make your Top 10 list? See my point?</p>
<p>I would like to "retract" my previous statement when I called Duke an Ivy League "wannabe" - but you do hear people in the South say "Duke is the Harvard of the South" or people say "Rice is the Harvard of the South" - It just seems like it stems from some kind of unneccessary inferiority complex (not that I think that it's right)... put another way, people at Harvard don't say "we are truly considered the Duke of the North"....(though I've seen Duke t-shirts that say something to this effect).</p>
<p>In short, I have nothing against Duke. Period.</p>
<p>As for Majayiduke09 comments about Brown, I think this may have to do with geography / demographics rather than anything else. You seem to hail from Georgia, where Duke's reputation will certainly be stronger than Brown's in your neck of the woods.</p>
<p>By contrast, I grew up in New England, and therefore, schools like Brown are held in very high esteem - "Top 10" if you like - whereas Duke won't automatically get that kind of recognition. Furthermore, I think the selectivity numbers will place Brown higher than Duke and cross admits / yield numbers vs. HYPSM will likely place Brown slightly higher than Duke (though I do not have the numbers off hand to back this statement up - its just my guesstimation from numbers I have seen in various places).</p>
<p>(p.s. I went to Princeton for undergrad, and Wharton for my MBA)</p>
<p>I envy you to no end, Ivy_Grad. I want to be like you lol except go to Yale for law. It's a long shot though. Yeah Duke will never be a Harvard, but it's trying and I love that about it.</p>
<p>I suppose so Ivy_Grad. Lol I remember a few times saying "Yeah I was accepted to Brown" and getting a blank look in return or having the individual say, "Where is that exactly?"</p>
<p>Hey guys, you should both be VERY PROUD BLUE DEVILS, and rightly so!!</p>
<p>Duke is an awesome school - plus you guys get to root for your school every year during March Madness!</p>