Ranking International Relation Programs

<p>I'm considering several MBA/MS or MA in International Relations dual degrees. What are some career paths where such a degree would be valued. Or more specifically, what options may be open to you that might otherwise not be provided by just an MA in International relations or just an MBA?
I know it's a vague question, so any feedback of any kind would be appreciated.</p>

<p>It's not a vague question at all, really.</p>

<p>I am most familiar with the Wharton MBA/Johns Hopkins SAIS MA. I think that the current US Ambassador to Singapore went to this program -- or maybe it was the last Ambassador there, one did I know. </p>

<p>In terms of jobs just out of the MBA/MA program versus MBA, I am not 100% sure that the dual degree would mean a whole lot. Having said that, I am sure there are international finance and other jobs where it would be a competitive advantage in the application and interview process; it might just make the difference.</p>

<p>What is clearly the case is that over the arc of your career your understanding of things and quite possibly the opportunities that you are given would be greatly enhanced because of the degree. And in the case of SAIS/Wharton, it's 3 years overall. Why wouldn't you, if you could afford it?</p>

<p>One thing is clear, it seems SAIS/JHU is a top-tier IR school at the graduate level (it doesn't have undergrad). But the Wharton MBA is probably the thing that gets the foot in the door of most jobs, if only because of the intensive, systematic recruiting that goes on at Wharton (but also of course because of the Wharton name too). You would be better off getting a higher quality MBA, if you are mostly concerned about your job out of the program. I am not sure Georgetown is considered at top-tier MBA program. It's SFS is considered top-tier for undergrad, but in DC, SAIS is considered the top-tier IR grad school generally.</p>

<p>I never went for an MBA, but had I done so, I would have really wanted to have it be as part of a joint MA/MBA degree.</p>

<p>Thanks Incredulous!
Since you seem to be quite knowledgeable about this, I hope you don't mind if I ask you (or anyone else out there) some follow up questions if you get a chance.</p>

<p>1) I'm looking at the sais-wharton program too, but getting into one of those schools is hard enough, i can only imagine how competitive the dual program would be. which is why i'm looking at the georgetown program!
i guess anyone knows that the georgetown ma is not as strong as the sais, and the gtown mba is hardly in the same league as the wharton. yet wouldn't a dual mba-master's at georgetown still be a pretty respected degree anywhere you go? or is it not even worth it at all?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Also I have heard that the SAIS degree by itself is comparable to a top tier b-school, the reason why many of graduates go to wall street right out of it. Have you heard anything about this?</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, since you can apply to a lot of the dual degree programs after you get into one program, do you think getting into SAIS might improve your chances at getting into wharton your first year (of course if you get stellar grades first semester at sais)?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thank you!</p>

<p>1) I think the dual degree adds incremental competitiveness to the MBA for most business jobs, and for some (particularly non-international) not at all. Your basic hireability will primarily be relative to your MBA for such jobs. I don't know about G'Town's MBA and how people do out of it. G'Town generally has a good rep in foreign affairs 'cause of SFS, but focus on what the MBA offers.</p>

<p>2) People do very well out of SAIS and they have representation in various firms like Goldman Sachs and others. SAIS recruited a Wharton prof a few years back and they've tuned up their financial faculty considerably. However, an MBA is a much more broadly focused degree: marketing, org. behavior, etc. If you want general management or marketing as a focus, it's not going to be a good substitute. Even in the area of finance, it's harder coming out of SAIS.</p>

<p>3) It's possible. Some people do this. However, you have to apply after only one semester. And for b-schools, working recs count for a lot more. I am not sure how much more it gets you in the way of acceptability to apply from SAIS, if anything. If you graduate from SAIS with a 2-year degree (the normal one), unfortunately you can't get convert it into a joint degree by going to Wharton for a year and a half. Then you have to get the full other degree. SAIS doesn't advertise it so much, but I think they'll authorize joint degrees with other MBA programs -- Tuck (Dartmouth), Haas (Berkeley), Harvard (????I think), UVA -- are ones that ring a bell. If you can get two degrees in 3 years and graduate from, I don't know a top ten or fifteen MBA program, I think you'd make yourself really competitive. Is G'Town there? Don't know.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>You can get an IR degree at Fletcher School (Tufts) combined with an MBA at Harvard Business School.</p>

<p>l'belle: do you know if Fletcher authorizes joint degrees with other MBA programs on a case-by-case basis? Harvard isn't the easiest b-school to get into (not that any school they'd do a joint degree program with would be, I imagine). SAIS has done so as I said I think with the programs listed above and others in the past few years. Of course, the other school has to agree too.</p>

<p>Incredulous: </p>

<p>I was actually wrong. The dual-degree that Fletcher offers with Harvard is with its law school. The dual-degree it has with MBA programs are, instead, with the Tuck School (Dartmouth), and two prestigious schools in Spain and France. </p>

<p>You can see all the joint programs here: <a href="http://fletcher.tufts.edu/academic/joints.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://fletcher.tufts.edu/academic/joints.shtml&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>However, you might be glad to note that on that same page, it reads:</p>

<p>
[quote]
In addition, students have created their own ad hoc joint degree programs with other leading graduate and professional schools by meeting specific criteria. Candidates for an ad hoc joint degree should consult either the Fletcher director of admissions and financial aid or the registrar and manager of student academic programs after gaining admission to both institutions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So it seems that the answer to your question is "yes"!</p>

<p>These rankings were published in the March/April 2007 Issue of Foreign Policy Magazine.
I think these maybe the most valid/credible rankings so far.</p>

<p>Top 20 Undergraduate Programs</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard University 48%</li>
<li>Princeton University 46%</li>
<li>Stanford University 30%</li>
<li>Georgetown University 28%</li>
<li>Columbia University 28%</li>
<li>Yale University 23%</li>
<li>University of Chicago 21%</li>
<li>University of California-Berkeley 12%</li>
<li>Dartmouth College 11%</li>
<li>George Washington University 10%</li>
<li>American University 10%</li>
<li>University of Michigan 9%</li>
<li>Tufts University 8%</li>
<li>Swarthmore College 8%</li>
<li>University of California-San Diego 8%</li>
<li>Cornell University 6%</li>
<li>Brown University 6%</li>
<li>Williams College 5%</li>
<li>Duke University 5%</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins University 5%</li>
</ol>

<p>Top 20 Master's Programs</p>

<ol>
<li>Georgetown University 65%</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins University 64%</li>
<li>Harvard University 46%</li>
<li>Tufts University 42%</li>
<li>Columbia University 39%</li>
<li>Princeton University 38%</li>
<li>George Washington University 28%</li>
<li>American University 19%</li>
<li>University of Denver 9%</li>
<li>Syracuse University 7%</li>
<li>University of California-San Diego 5%</li>
<li>University of Chicago 4%</li>
<li>Yale University 4%</li>
<li>Stanford University 4%</li>
<li>University of Pittsburgh 3%</li>
<li>University of California-Berkeley 2%</li>
<li>University of Maryland 2%</li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology 2%</li>
<li>Monterey Institute of International Studies 2%</li>
<li>University of Southern California 2%</li>
</ol>

<p>Top 20 PhD Programs</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard University 65%</li>
<li>Princeton University 52%</li>
<li>Columbia University 45%</li>
<li>Standford University 45%</li>
<li>University of Chicago 30%</li>
<li>Yale University 26%</li>
<li>University of California-Berkeley 25%</li>
<li>University of Michigan 22%</li>
<li>University of California-San Diego 20%</li>
<li>Cornell University 12%</li>
<li>Massachusetts Institute of Technology 11%</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins University 10%</li>
<li>Georgetown University 8%</li>
<li>Duke University 8%</li>
<li>Ohio State University 8%</li>
<li>New York University 7%</li>
<li>University of Minnesota 5%</li>
<li>University of California-Los Angeles 5%</li>
<li>Tufts University 4%</li>
<li>University of Rochester 4%</li>
</ol>

<p>I guess all the IR power houses (Ivies, JHU, GWU, American, Georgetown, Tufts, UC's) are represented, as expected.</p>

<p>Notice that some of Top undergraduate programs are not represented in graduate programs. It is because either that they completely lack graduate programs in IR or have a very small PhD programs.</p>

<p>Enjoy :)</p>

<p>what do the percentages mean?</p>

<p>Hi:</p>

<p>A page back on this thread was a very, very insightful discussion about the rankings of the schools. (I was involved in that discussion). ; )</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=56589&page=24%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=56589&page=24&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Re-iterating a couple of points:</p>

<p>1) Some schools shouldn't even be on the Master's list. Berkeley for instance which has one of the top PS/IR schools for a PhD doesn't have a Master's Program a la JHU/SAIS, Fletcher/Tufts, etc.</p>

<p>2) I am not trying to be a noodge, but I never would have expected to see G'Town ranked at the top for IR. When I was at SAIS, it was commonly thought that G'Town wasn't in the same league as SAIS, Fletcher, Columbia, etc. On the other hand, G'Town was acknowledged to be the best IR undergrad. </p>

<p>3) As I said on the other page, comparing SAIS/Fletcher/SIPA to Harvard or Princeton is comparing apples and oranges, since the latter two are MPA/MPP programs and teach a markedly different curriculum that JHU/Tufts/Columbia.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I was actually wrong. The dual-degree that Fletcher offers with Harvard is with its law school. The dual-degree it has with MBA programs are, instead, with the Tuck School (Dartmouth), and two prestigious schools in Spain and France

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, it must have changed, 'cause I worked previously with Fletcher/Harvard MBA grads who told me there was a joint program. SAIS used to have a joint program with Stanford law, and I think that may have similarly gone by the wayside. Or maybe it's just that there are so few who actually do it each year, that it's easy to overlook them. Anyway, it's my impression that there's very little "infrastructure" associated with these joint degree programs other than automatic approval for it and perhaps an alumni event or two focused on the program specifically. So far as I know, the SAIS/Wharton not like the Lauder program at Wharton, for instance, that has dedicated coursework and classes that only involve Lauder students. And Wharton is so big, I doubt there's a lot of cohesion amongst the SAIS guys once they get there. </p>

<p>I think the answer is: apply to SAIS/Fletcher, etc. wherever you want to be for IR, and apply for a range of b-schools that you think you can get into. I have immense respect for G'Town -- and I would welcome people to correct me if they have better info. -- but I don't see that joint degree program as being as potent as, say, a SAIS/Wharton, Fletcher/Tuck,SIPA/CBS or fill in the blank SAIS-Top 15 b-school. </p>

<p>A correction to the question of whether the joint degree is worthwhile: I will say: people got some VERY interesting business internships after their first year at SAIS: examples: with I-banks in Asia, banks in Paris, etc. Having this opportunity will give you a leg up and better experience with which to graduate from B-school, and therefore the joint degree will be substantially better in getting you where you want to go than only an MBA. This is one thing I forgot about. I had an interesting business internship in Asia.</p>

<p>Those rankings are based on the perception of people inside the international relations field. To a degree, they are biased towards academia since the survey encompasses a lot of professors. However, compared to some of the more disreputable surveys, this is probably pretty accurate. The big question though, and one that probably can't be answered, is that these ranks are based on perception. That can be good on a resume, but not necessarily for the development of your knowledge or skills.</p>

<p>On another note, there are definite cutoffs for the different lists. Notice that only SFS and SAIS are over 50% for Masters. For undergrad, note that after #7 University of Chicago, the numbers decrease substantially, to the point that they really don't matter. This same effect can be seen after UCSD in the PhD list.</p>

<p>About Masters and Phds, how much of a difference do they make in terms of jobs. I mean, in the field of IR, what type of job would you be able to get with a Phd that you wouldn't be able to get with just a Masters or 4 year degree? Thanks!</p>

<p>Best I can tell, the MA is going to limit your ability to get into the top economic careers (think World Bank, Treasury Dept.) because you don't spend nearly enough time on modeling as you would in an economics/political economy PhD.</p>

<p>I think a lot depends on what you want to do. The various alphabet soup agencies have been more than enthusiastic about my having an MA, as they seem to see it as just the right amount of education before I get "re-educated." ;)</p>

<p>For IR type jobs defined as government, multilateral institutions (World Bank, UN), non-governmental orgs (World Wildlife Fund, etc):</p>

<p>US Government: The most forgiving of non-PhD (ie Master's Holders). Some exceptions: Treasury for analytic jobs (economics), State Department for policy planning jobs (esp. toward upper echelon) though I am not 100% sure PhDs get a much better footing. I have just known some of those guys and they tended to be PhD holders.</p>

<p>Multilateral Institutions: Forget working at the World Bank if you're American and don't have a PhD in economics or some other technical field of interest, and it has to be from a top 6 or 7 program typically. Of course, there are plenty of MAs who work there, but they are not going to move upwards that far. The UN, I would imagine, is the same. The IFC, part of the World Bank, basically demands private sector banking experience (investment banking, treasury operations, etc.). The thing is there are quotas for employment by "donor" country, and the competition is harder as an American.</p>

<p>NGOs: An MA is good, a PhD is ultimate. As forgiving as govt., but you'll get farther in a particular technical field if you have a PhD (or other advanced, specialized degree).</p>

<p>Incredulous,</p>

<p>I tend to find that the intelligence agencies are very forgiving toward non-PhD holders. Especially those with "real-world" (read: military) intelligence experience.</p>

<p>Thats interesting, thanks. I'll more than likely pursue a career in one of the alphabet soup agencies.</p>

<p>California-Bolt,</p>

<p>I've had no problem getting good words out of the CIA, DIA, DoD, and State.</p>

<p>USTR is a bit harder to crack, if you want to put them in the same category.</p>

<p>With your credentials, you'd be a shoo-in for a number of agencies, actually. If you're younger than 35, FBI would gobble you up. But I think I told you that already...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Incredulous,</p>

<p>I tend to find that the intelligence agencies are very forgiving toward non-PhD holders. Especially those with "real-world" (read: military) intelligence experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A friend of mine interviewed for a position with the CIA from a top-tier doctoral econ. program (UC Berk.), a SAIS Master's, Stanford undergrad in relevant studies was interviewed by a fellow SAIS grad who would have been his supervisor. His statement was that no one interested in an academic life would take that kind of job if for no other reason than no publishing opps.</p>

<p>Anyway, yeah, I think most of the alphabet soup agencies don't require a PhD. But it can help just about anywhere....</p>

<p>I've been accepted to USCs undergrad IR major and will probably go there, but will it harm my chances of getting into a top IR grad school such as SFS or SAIS?
thanks to all who respond</p>