<p>Barrons:</p>
<p>You inspired me to take a look at the website of a large real estate company here. One agent has a degree in Art History from Wellesley; another has a degree in Creative Writing from Wheaton; another in English Lit, McGill. There are some that have a degree in Marketing or some similar field. But a lot have UG degrees in the humanities.</p>
<p>One could conclude that their UG degrees were useless. But they are certainly employable and quite successful.</p>
<p>marite:</p>
<p>I doubt that their degrees really helped them much as real estate agents and these same people probably could have done just as well in that field without a college degree at all and certainly not one from a high-end private college. </p>
<p>Given that they're not employed in anything close to their area of focus in college, I'd say that they are demonstrating that they actually weren't very employable - i.e. they weren't employable due to their studies. This doesn't preclude them from being successful. Neither does not having a college degree at all. This also doesn't mean their studies had no value, just that it didn't necessarily help them become gainfully employed. If they truly have a high level of interest in their chosen areas of study I imagine they might be museum curators, novelists, or marketing chiefs right now.</p>
<p>UCSD dad:</p>
<p>I agree that their degrees might not be particularly useful in the area in which they are currently employed--some have taken detours to arrive there. But it is not the same as their being unemployable. My H could not find a job when he got his Ph.D. in physics from one of the country's top departments. He switched to another field where there were jobs. I don't think his situation was any different from those art majors who've become real estate agents. And I never considered him "unemployable" or "having a useless degree." Mine, in fact, was the ""useless degree;" but I've never been laid off.</p>
<p>What I wonder at is that some posters argue that for technically trained people, it is important to be flexible, to keep constantly up-dated, to be willing to switch jobs and even fields but seem to think that there is only one parth that leads from an English or history degree and that holders of such degrees are all on it.</p>
<p>EDIT:SBmom: We crossposted!</p>
<p>blossom, great info from the trenches. You give me a good feeling for my Eng major daughter.</p>
<p>shagpin, you have crafted the other very important thing besides a degree-- a good resume. Well done.</p>
<p>ucsd-ucla: I beg to differ. It is not necessarily that they were unemployable before-- they probably were employed in something more 9-5. Lots of highly educated people in real estate share another very important factor: they are women with kids. </p>
<p>I am one of them. I had a very successful career as a screenwriter, then I stopped working to have kids, and finally I wanted to do something part-time when my kids were bigger. Writing would not have been a good choice as my writing habits tended towards the "15 hour marathon" model and not the "pick up DS at 2:30 pm" model. I wanted something lucrative too. It seemed like a practical choice.</p>
<p>While you don't need an Ivy (or any) degree to sell RE, to be very successful in RE, it certainly helps. I think outside the box (very important in negotiation, deals, problem solving, etc). I do not take anything anyone says literally but look for the deeper level (can't tell you how important this is in sales; there is always a hidden message). I am careful about the nuances when I express myself or speak on behalf of clients. Most of this is just being smart, yes, but there is another bonus. I deal with many high rollers and I know they like being in the hands of someone they view as an intellectual equal (this is a tall order when most people think of RE agents as akin to used car salesmen.)</p>
<p>I don't quite agree about the "luxury degrees". For one thing, a college major usually doesn't represent 100% of someone's coursework. Hopefully, at most colleges students learn to think and communicate. I also think that many people in the work force are not necessarily working in a field revolving around their college major but their education itself prepared them to be "prepared" to do many kinds of work. </p>
<p>I also think that in some fields, one really needs the specialized major in order to have some "expertise" in addition to their other more general liberal arts courses. For instance, in film production, there are some skills that one can learn in that major that would help if going into that field. For someone going into broadcast journalism or advertising, it can help to have majored in those fields. </p>
<p>I also don't see certain majors as a luxury. Some majors such as theater may seem like a frill or luxury to some but our world needs artists. Even if those fields do not make a lot, not everyone is in it to obtain a certain level salary. My field is education which is not a high paying field. I still think my education was worth it. I majored in Child Study and have a graduate degree in education. Also the arts are not necessarily well paid or even certain fields. But for those who go into the arts, it is a "calling" or a passion that they can't just NOT DO because it seems like a luxury to study them. I do have a kid majoring in musical theater and I don't see her major as a "luxury." I can't imagine her having NOT gone on to major in this. It is part of who she is. Our world needs creators and performers and the arts. Also, to go into this field, it requires specialized training. One needs to train in singing, dancing, and acting in order to stand a chance in the field. As well, as that coursework, my D also has liberal arts courses and so she does have to think and write and study a range of curricular areas, though has less liberal arts courses than a strictly liberal arts major because she is getting a BFA degree. Her chosen school does require a liberal arts component and the belief is that an educated and thinking actor is a better actor. Is she guaranteed to make it as a musical theater performer? No, it is uncertain. I could say that about many college majors, however. But for any college major, including hers, she still has a college DEGREE. I believe a college degree can lead to employment and it is not just the college major that counts. I know that my D is capable of many things besides performing. In her case, she is a gifted writer and is interested in writing musicals. She loves creating shows and has worked at producting/directing/musical directing/ choreographing shows. She could do that. She could work as an accompanist (already has) and do a myriad of jobs related to the theater. or even unrelated I don't see her as ONLY being able to do ONE thing due to having had one particular major. As well, IF she has a career in that major, she will have needed the specialized major to be prepared and qualifed. </p>
<p>I am a parent who does not care what my kids major in. My only preference is that they major in what interests them and that is what they have done. I was able to do that and want them to be able to, as well, and not be told which majors are OK or be persuaded one way or another. While a college major is important and can lead to a related career, I also think that one still earns a degree and it is not ONLY about the major.</p>
<p>I'll throw my hat in the ring:
People have told me that I'm anywhere from a "good'" to "excellent" writer. I don't know whether its true or not, as you can't really be a good judge of one's own work), but I am writer. I write because it keeps me sane and because it just feels like something I have to do, regardless. Yet I don't want to major in writing, English, or a related discipline. Rather, I want to major in pharmacy (technically a professional field but bear with me for the sake of agrument). Part of this is employability/salary, yes, as I don't think the nature and necessiities of my life would mesh well with total poverty. I know nothing's a "sure thing" in any profession, of course, but fiction writing is definitely one of the most risky--as I like to tell my Mom, "one in a million are published; one in a billion are rich." However, for me, it goes beyond that. I want to be in health care, and, as cliched as it sounds, I want to help people. I want to learn about the human body and drugs that affect it. I want to go out and do something every day. I love writing, and I'm truly glad I can (apparently) do it well, but it is not the only thing in my life nor do I want it to be the only thing I ever do. If I get published one day, I'd be overjoyed, but it's not something I'd wager my life on. I write because I have to; I plan to study pharmacy because I want to. I can--and I right now I do--love both ideas and disclipines, just in different ways. And if pharmacy can provide the stability to pen in after hours novel? All the better. If not, well, at least I'll know I'll be helping to save lives while the words still twist and turn in my head.</p>
<p>I was using the term 'employable' in the context of this thread meaning employable in their chosen field right out of school for a reasonable income. If they end up right out of school in another area entirely that didn't require their college background then I don't consider that 'employable' (in this context). </p>
<p>Changing careers later for other reasons such as into one with a flexible schedule to take care of kids is out of context for any of my points since that was by choice rather than being forced into it for lack of opportunities. btw - I admire you for doing this. My wife quit her career when we had kids and neither of us have regretted it a bit.</p>
<p>There's no doubt that not all RE agents have the same capabilities and I'd certainly want one who was smart and able to think out of the box when need be (I actually used one once who did just that to my benefit). </p>
<p>To get away from me splitting hairs on the definition of the term 'employable', the real point of concern is whether the grads have a realistic view of what's in store for them when they graduate with a particular degree. There are many who truly thought they'd step into some high-paying position when they graduate with that history degree (for example). These people will be disappointed. If on the other hand, they planned to use it to become a history teacher for example, then they'll have made a good choice and won't be disappointed. There are others who know full well what the practical and intellectual value of the degree is and will be happy with it regardless. I just believe there are quite a few of the former who end up disappointed and disillusioned and they may have made different choices if they'd given employablity more of an emphasis up front.</p>
<p>My DS will be a music performance major, despite the fact that many people caution against it if he doens't want to be a HS teacher, for example (he doesn't). Is it an employable degree? Perhaps not, compared to a pharmacy, engineering, nursing, journalism, social work, etc. degree. But he has so much passion (and innate ability) that he can see himself doing absolutely nothing else.</p>
<p>There are other exceptionally talented kids that we know, whose parents will not allow them to major in music, due to the concerns about employability. Personally, I feel that forcing someone to be a physics major, for example, when their hearts are not into it, makes very little sense.</p>
<p>There are plenty of liberal arts majors that are not necessarily "employable" degrees, but then again, I have never looked at college as a trade school.</p>
<p>UCSD dad:</p>
<p>My H belongs to the post-Sputnik generation. How many were drawn to physics not just by visions of helping beat the Soviets in science but being gainfully employed? By the time he got his Ph.D. there was a veritable glut. So if we go by the narrow definition of "employable" he chose a major in which he was unemployable and had to switch fields entirely in order to find employment. But could he have known it when he applied to college?
The supply and demand cycle of the market does not coincide with the length of a college education. When dot.coms went bust, the introductory course in computer science at Berkeley enrolled half the number of students as in previous year, making it hard for the comp sci faculty to argue in favor of expanding its ranks and offerings. A few years later, the high tech industry has recovered somewhat (though some of its work has been outsourced). The students who decided against comp sci may have missed the boat on the high tech recovery.</p>
<p>Wolfpiper:
Most writers have "day jobs.'" I hope you continue writing in your spare time. There are some great writers who double as physicians. Michael Crichton no longer practices medicine but he did when he started. Oliver Sacks and Peri Klass write based on their experiences as practising physicians.</p>
<p>Marite, that is definitely true about the supply and demand cycle of the market. My DH is a software engineer, who used to be courted almost constantly by head hunters, and could practically name a salary he wanted...and get it. He was involved in several (now defunct) dot.com start-ups. </p>
<p>Since the bust, we are delighted he has a job at all. Times have definitely changed in the software industry.</p>
<p>I have read most of the posts in this thread. I find this a fascinating subject and will share our experience with our three kids:</p>
<h1>1 S - I would say an 8 -9 on a scale of a - 10. He knew before going to college that he wanted a career in finance and to make lots of money (please don't be judgmental - he is not the greedy type. He likes to travel). He attended UChicago where the motto is "life of the mind" so he spent four years in a very intellectual atmosphere, being exposed to a variety of humanities/social sciences courses, coming out with a BS in Math and a concentration in Statistics. He originally wanted to double major in Econ/Math and headed that way but couldn't get into certain courses for that Econ major. He did take lots of Econ classes but his math major is great. He was advised by an administrator at UChicago to get that math degree which is (according to her) a very useful degree. He always has had an affinity for math so this seemed natural for him. I think this made him extremely marketable. He is working for a hedge fund making very good money and may end up in Singapore within the next few months. He is living his dream really. UChicago, although it has a reputation for being very theoretical, ended up being terrific in its career placement /advisement. He may or may not pursue an MBA. He is doing the route of CFA exams which is a good idea and good value.</h1>
<h1>2 S - I would put him at a 9 -10 out of a 1 - 10 scale. He has just completed his first year at NYU/Stern, probably will major in Finance with a minor in Math (ours sons don't fall too far from their father). I sort of wish that he would (I guess this is still not too late) have pursued a degree in Physics or something science related b/c he is very comfortable with these subjects (He got 5's on science AP subjects - Physics, Chem, Bio, Calc AB, BC). He did get into UChicago where he could have pursued a great science subject (he can minor in a subject like this at NYU in the CAS) but chose the school with what he perceived as a more proven career path. He thinks that there are more intership possibilities/job opportunities at NYU than at UChicago or other schools that he got into. Also he could play a sport at NYU that doesn't exist at Uchicago so that was a plus for him. Should I discourage his career focus to head more for an intellectual pursuit? I have said to him "you are really good at physics and math - maybe you should follow that pursuit" but he doesn't think he would make as much money. I have no doubt that my sons will be able to earn money and take care of themselves. This is a relief after we have spent $160,000 on #1 S's education and we will spend $200,000 on our #2 S's education. No fin/aid here!</h1>
<p>Now for our D who is a Junior in HS. She really doesn't know what she wants to do except that she loves international travel and would like to do something with an international business, I guess. She is not as strong a student - a solid B student, but not an intellectual. Math is probably her strongest subject (I guess it's in the genes!). Should we encourage her to major in Math or Marketing/ International Business? We are looking at a variety of schools - mostly comprehensive universities (University of Vermont/match, McGill University/reach, Lehigh/reach, Marist/safety, Arcadia/safety, Lafayette/reach. We haven't looked at Boston area schools yet, will do soon. Northeastern seems like a good fit but she doesn't want to go there since that is her best friend's #1 school) with Business schools but we have looked at LAC's also. I think she would benefit from attending a match LAC that is not competetive where she can be exposed to many subjects and might find a passion there. She could major in Math if she wants. She is not a big reader and could improve in this area. Any suggestions? </p>
<p>I think whether your S/D takes a career oriented path or pursues an intellectual route, studying his/her passion for four years can work well either way.</p>
<p>Peacemaker:</p>
<p>How strong are your D's math skills? What kind of math does she like best? She might pursue a degree in statistics, pure math or applied math; economics is a math-heavy field which does not require as advanced math as a math major.
If she loves to travel, I would suspect that people skills will be as important as the actual major. She could go into international business or the foreign service or just decide to work abroad in her chosen field. But the capacity to be flexible and culturally sensitive is a personal attribute that is not part of a college major.</p>
<p>Marite - My D has great people skills and is very personable. That is her strength. Right now she is taking two math classes, AP Stats and Pre-calc this year. She will take AP Calc next year. She will probably get a B+ in AP Stats and an A- in Pre-Calc. Her middle brother thinks she should pursue marketing - she loves clothes and studies the catalogues! I guess many 16 yr.old girls do this though - LOL!</p>
<p>Peacemaker...I enjoyed reading about each of your kids and the thoughts that went into their college decisions. I agree, as well that it doesn't matter if one pursues a more intellectual route or chooses to study their passion that is career oriented because it can work either way....each person is different. I have one doing more of the liberal arts route though she has a clear major and graduate school intentions (majoring in architectural studies) and wasn't 100% of the major until she had taken some college courses. I have another one in a more focused program who has known what she has wanted to do from a very young age and her college degree is more passion/career oriented....she is at NYU (like your kid!) but in Tisch for musical theater. </p>
<p>About your daughter...those are some good choices. I want to mention that since I live in Vermont....UVM is a very good school and while it is a university, it is a small one and even if it is not a LAC, it still has the feel of a smaller school. Also, unlike many state universities, UVM has more out of state students than in state ones. Your daughter may wish to look into:</p>
<p>Skidmore
Union
Babson
Bucknell
Gettysburg
Franklin and Marshall
Univ. of Delaware
Ithaca
Drexel
Washington and Lee
James Madison
William and Mary
American
Mary Washington
University of Rochester
Dickinson
Villanova </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Scoozievt:</p>
<p>These are very good suggestions!</p>
<p>My D really liked UVM even though she had a fever and was very sick when we did the tour/info session. My H and I loved Burlington, so did D. She loves to snowboard, too. This would be a great match. </p>
<p>Some of the others we have visited. Skidmore felt insular to me. My D didn't really like it. We visited Villanova and I was struck by the number of cars and frat/soroity symbols there! It was a pretty campus and might be a possibilty. We'll have to check out the others. One of my D's track coaches attended Univ. of Delaware and is encouraging my D to visit. My D is an athlete and might want to do soccer or track at a Div. III school. Her track coaches think she could do Div. I but I don't think she could do a sport and keep up with the academics. It would be too much stress, I think.</p>
<p>Anyway, I don't mean to rob this thread of it's central theme. If anyone has suggestions, you can pm me. Thanks!</p>
<p>Virtually nobody with an MS in RE does residential unless they are in residential development on a large scale. We do shopping centers, industrial parks, large apt. complexes and office buildings that are investment properties. There is a large somewhat little known industry that develops, finances, and invests in these properties. The typical property I work on is worth at least $10,000,000 and I have done them with values in excess of $1 Billion. I used to work buying property for the largest pension fund manager of RE in the world with assets in the $100 Billion range. Most state and private pension funds are heavy investors in commercial RE. Right now I am analyzing some of the RE assets of the California employees retirement fund. The largest one in this pool is worth around $100 million.
So no, we don't do houses.</p>
<p>Barrons:</p>
<p>Since the thread is about UG degrees rather than advanced degrees, what was your UG degree? How did you get from there to an MS in RE? Did you work for a while before going for the Ms degree? Thanks!</p>
<p>Someone else brought up the MS in RE thing as an example of a narrow focus.. I had a degree in econ and worked in city planning in Cali where I met RE developers and learned their job was far more interesting and seemed to pay better. Also I hated the long boring city council meetings that dragged until midnight.</p>
<p>Barrons, since you're responding to me let me respond to you. I was responding to the notion of a luxury degree, i.e. something that doesn't have a job category or title attached to it. My experience has been that hyper-specialization early on is the ultimate luxury.... especially if a kid enters a major at age 19 with no concept about what people in that field do all day. That's a luxury degree.... because you've got a narrow vocational education which you don't want to use... since you don't like the field. </p>
<p>It's great that you love RE. I've met people w/Masters in RE who are trying to re-package themselves as equity analysts in pharmaceuticals or media and it's a tough row to hoe..... better to have done an MBA, which costs the same, if you're not 100% or 90% sure you're going to love RE. I apologize if you took this as an attack-- but surely you know people from grad school who are not working in the field anymore.</p>
<p>Soozie-- I was not discussing degrees in the arts as "luxury degrees" since I absolutely don't consider them luxuries. Was not attacking your kids or their choices.</p>
<p>I meet kids who mistakenly and naively assume that getting a degree in something "practical" is the best way to ensure a life of high bucks and low stress. If the choice is between being a happy English major or a miserable Business major, my counsel is, be an English major. There will always be employement opportunities for someone who can think, read and write.</p>