Rate the importance of employability

Parent Cafe
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<p>Just musing along (that's always dangerous for me), and let me be the first to say that I am stating the obvious (I'm sure several will follow who point that out). </p>

<p>Their appears to be some difference of opinion as to whether or not employabilty should be factored in to the choice a student makes between schools or for that matter, types of schools. A recent post suggested that some of the selective colleges placed little or no emphasis on employability upon graduation from UG. I believe the poster viewed that as negative. </p>

<p>Question: In making your student's choice, on a scale of 1-10 with ten being very important and one being of no importance, how important was "employability" after UG to them (or you)? if you consider grad/professional schools as "employment" does that change your rating?</p>

<p>I'll start by saying that my kid is more pre-professional than some. She wants to be a physician and has since the 6th grade. So, although immediate employability after UG would rank very low, ( maybe a 2) grad/professional school admissions send it up to an 8, maybe an 8+. My D's professional goals overrode her desires to go to a school whose UG education might not have been as safe or efficient a choice. By the same token, she had turned down her most efficient options on the basis that they didn't offer enough of the "life of the mind", "well-contemplated" life stuff. </p>

<p>I also wonder if our feelings about this color some of our other thinking and actions about college choices. It appears obvious to me that a UG business student would have more concerns about employability right out of the box, and would therefore stay away from schools who they perceive as less geared toward UG as a terminal degree. </p>

<p>(As an aside, have you wondered why MIT and CalTech are never really heavily involved in the threads considering prestige and "well contemplated life" and the like? Rarely are they mentioned. HYP get drilled and then some upper LAC's but not MIT and CalTech. Hmmmm. )</p>

<p>Does this color some of the posters opinions who disdain some elite schools as turning out bums and waiters? My memory tells me that they were very concerned with the grads' workplace performance. Teaching them to be productive employees. Is this really where our schism (or chasm for that matter) is? Not Ivy vs. State school , or elite vs. everybody else , or LAC's vs. uni's? I wonder. What do y'all think?</p>

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<p>You might be on to something, Curm. As far as employability as an end, I'd say we were actually at a 1 out our house. We figured they'd always find a way to pay the rent, and they're not high maintenance kinds of kids (both are out door to door canvassing in a thunderstorm as I type--eek!).</p>

<p>Even if you factor in grad school, I don't think it changes it, because they didn't pick their schools on whether or not they'd get in to grad school and were not looking at professional type occupations when they were applying. If their schools do help them get into grad school should they so desire, it will be because they got excellent eduations in themselves--that's what they were aiming for.</p>

<p>(shouldn't say this to you, but from the time my kids could talk, they knew they did not want to be a doctor like their dad.)</p>

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<p><a href="shouldn't%20say%20this%20to%20you,%20but%20from%20the%20time%20my%20kids%20could%20talk,%20they%20knew%20they%20did%20not%20want%20to%20be%20a%20doctor%20like%20they're%20dad.">quote=garland</a>

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It's O.K..:) Your H's choice has been discussed at my house. Her eyes are open and she's aware and looking around.</p>

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<p>Wow, look, don't want to have that kind of influence. He was always ambivalent--shouldn't have gone into it in the first place (baby on the way has a way of making you jump to rash decisions).</p>

<p>It's an incredibly honorable profession--despite the negatves thrown at it. But it is stressful, especially for thoughtful, obsessive compulsive people. :)</p>

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<p>I'll play along: hmmm...7-8</p>

<p>I do think that major is at least as important, or more important as the school.
In fact, I was thinking about it today. Curm, are you a mind reader? :)
I have a younger boy who is thinking about majoring in something perhaps in the communications field. On cc I have read that this leads to unemployment. I really have no idea as to whether this is, or is not true. Also, communications can mean many different things-ie: journalism, advertising, public speaking, electronic media etc. I suppose that they are not sought after equally.</p>

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<p>garland, what I was saying is "she's not going into this blind" . And anyway, there are plenty of opt-out windows to jump out of before med school (or even after).</p>

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<p>I'm afraid in my house it's 1-1. Both my kids being impractical, we decided to give them the best education we could afford (and that does not mean an Ivy education necessarily). H was the practical one--and has been laid off several times. I was the impractical major, and my job has been more secure than his.</p>

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<p>Curm:<br>
OT: How was the speech?</p>

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<p>marite, I had you at 1-1 also on my Racing Form.</p>

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<p>It went very well , thank you, and her speech was mercifully short. Like less than 3 minutes. She spoke with a strong , clear voice and kept a measured pace, and to my great glee managed to look up from time to time. A victory. (She received lots of compliments, especially from the administration. LOL. )</p>

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<p>I'd say in my S's college choice, employability after UG was pretty much in the 1 range. And he's at MIT. He thinks of his school as a treat for the mind in most ways, so I'm not sure where the "MIT and Caltech are missing from that discussion" postulate comes from. Maybe I just don't frequent those threads so I don't add comments from the MIT/"life of the mind" perspective.</p>

<p>S appears to assume he'll go to grad school but isn't focusing that far ahead yet. It might change the equation some if we substituted "grad school" for "employment", but maybe all the way up to a 2 or 3.</p>

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<p>With both of my daughters and me we're up towards the 10 end of the scale. I think employability is very important for most people although many people don't really give it adequate consideration up front and colleges certainly seem to de-emphasize it. Many of these students graduate with a BA in history, poli-sci, philosophy, etc. and only then discover that they're not particularly qualified in anything that an employer is willing to pay them much for. I'm not knocking those majors - I'm just stating that many students aren't prepared for the fact that employers won't be chasing after them with high paying jobs. This is particularly a problem if a student went into considerable debt to obtain the non-sought-after degree. I'm referring only to those who are trying to find jobs right after obtaining these types of UG degrees as opposed to those who go on to grad school and obtain a more practical degree (MBA, MD, etc.).</p>

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<p>Since I'm one of the people who posted a comment about employability, I can answer you that the parents I know expect their children to be self supporting after college. Some are willing to wait until after grad school. The idea is that the kids get a degree and don't move back home, supported by parents until they are 30. I got a liberal arts degree and was completely unemployable with a BA. My husband walked out of his graduation ceremony right into a job because he planned in advance to do that and took a major where it was possible to do so. I'm surprised so many of you don't seem to care about employability. I understand if a student is definitely going to go to med school or get an MBA, there is a definite plan in the works. But considering how concerned so many of you are with finances, wouldn't it be nice if your kids graduated into jobs and not back home? Just a thought.</p>

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<p>I fully expect my S#1 to find a job and be self-supporting after he graduates. I have no doubt that he will do so. But choosing a college based on whether it would enable him to be "more employable" afterwards just wasn't a consideration during his choice time. He's there to learn how to think and contribute to the world, and to expand his realms of experience, knowledge, and self-understanding. How he chooses to do the former is likely something that he will come to realize during his UG career, not something he had in mind when selecting a college. The rest will follow naturally.</p>

<p>My S#2 is more likely to expect employability to be one of the things he gets as an UG when he heads to college in another year, although he would never put it in those terms.</p>

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<p>I re-read several pages of the Lifetime advantages thread and selected these comments. I really need to find some Dstark or viewpoint or Packer comments that sum up their feelings but I got tired. Sorry for the 3 to 1 "selection", and to those readers unfamiliar , the "split" is very real .</p>

<p>I don't have numbers and I will tell you that there are elite college proponents who are clearly pre-professional (;)), as well as non-elite proponents that couldn't care less about employability. But , as a starting point that hopefully can avoid the elite vs. non-elite rancor, I initiated this thread. Now we can have rancor over employability as a goal of UG education. Hey, at least it's different rancor. </p>

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<p>It does appear that some posters feel that anything related to making money, or employability should never mix with UG education . </p>

<p>Some posters appear to consider career goals as well as intellectual fit and attempt some sort of balancing act between the two.</p>

<p>It also appears that some want the best bang for the buck. Some frame it as "value". They feel that a school that prepares you to make a better living and/or at a reduced cost is a better value than a school that eschews such practical measures such as income or employability or costs in favor of creating a truly educated person.</p>

<p>And last but not least, there are posters who believe the pratical schools, those that produce immediately employable individuals with job skills that create good income possibilities are the superior schools . They may feel that these are the truly elite. Some of them may feel that USNWR needs to include employability as a criteria in selecting "America's Best Colleges". They may be the type that would look at average starting salaries of graduates of a particular school or program and compare that to another school as part of the college choice, as a prime motivator for attendance.</p>

<p>And of course, there are several subsets of the above.</p>

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<p>Okay, I'll stir the pot. On one hand, I really detest the hyper-vocational orientation of some students. Take the obsession with investment banking, please. The hyper-vocational orientation has numerous flaws. 1) People change. What you enjoy doing at 22, you may detest at 40. Don't mortgage your entire future with "golden handcuff" choices that you make now. 2) The employment world changes. Ain't much of a demand for buggy whip makers these days, no matter how damned good you are. Otoh, if you're a really good web designer, there are jobs for you. (If you're mediocre, lots of luck. Or if you're living in the wrong locale.) </p>

<p>I think there is always a demand for people who can think rigorously, can communicate well both orally and in writing, are literate, numerate, and creative, and have some ambition and/or leadership qualities and work ethic. Adaptability--the ability to hit a curve ball--is good for something too. </p>

<p>If one approaches schooling as an opportunity to develop those qualities, one can probably do pretty well. The danger is in being one of the crowd that doesn't particularly stand out.</p>

<p>There's also the specialization vs. generalist question: if your area is Egyptian nautical archaeology, you better be one of the top 5 in the world. On the other hand, if you can put up with the tedium of doing accounting and be someone who is referred to when a mugwump says "I'll have my people get on this right away," then there's a certain amount of security in your life.</p>

<p>It was once pointed out to me that people work for a combination of two reasons: financial reward and psychic gratification. Imo, I've known too many starving artists and you need to have a plan for both. </p>

<p>Even if you're getting just a B.A. in liberal arts, you can be fine as long as you have a reasonable plan of where you're trying to get to. The danger is in being one of the ones who, when asked what they want to do, say "I dunno." Having exhausted both Plan A and Plan B within the space of three years when I was young, I have a nodding acquaintance with some of the pitfalls.</p>

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<p>TheDad, as usual that was great.;)</p>

<p>But (to continue the stir) by even considering employability , haven't you broken ranks with those who believe that education is its own reward and should remain unsullied by such banalities? </p>

<p>Doesn't consideration of employabilty or marketability cause one to consider what classes to take and even what majors to pursue? Doesn't that then stifle or , at the extreme, snuff out the purely educational light? IOW, isn't that being a little bit pregnant?</p>

<p>[And before the arrival of the folks calling me a heretic, let it be known that I'm playing the role of questioner. We were the only two still awake. ;) As usual, TheDad and I appear (so far) to be on the same page.]</p>

<p>BTW, this musing has also allowed me to understand more the differences in how my D and I approached her college choices.</p>

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<p>So glad someone mentioned personality & character traits in this mix...I'll add no matter what you want and how hard you work, plan, struggle or not the amazing element of pure chance & unbashed good or bad luck in finding gainful employment or a pure education for education's sake.</p>

<p>And now to go make my lunch.</p>

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<p>O.K. I'm sufficiently reminded. How provincial of me. "The only two on the mainland U.S. awake" would have been far more precise.;) Enjoy your lunch, overseas. LOL.</p>

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<p>Mrs P--I concur that they need to support themselves. That's always been made very clear. I just don't think that they need(ed) to aim their college choices, majors, etc, in that direction. My D has been out of school for two years now. She went to a very good LAC, majored in something chosen purely because she was interested in it, and has had gainful employment ever since. No job she's had requires a college degree, but she's paying the rent and the rest of the bills. </p>

<p>I am really glad she saw her education as an end in itself, not a means. That reflects the values she was brought up with. Not the only values, not the "right" ones; just ours.</p>